If I wanted to influence future plans, I wouldn't be discussing the features that might be desired on the Pi4. I'd be talking about the Pi6. (My best guess is that the Pi4 SoC is baked in SIlicon by now and the Pi5 design concept work is probably pretty much in hand.)DougieLawson wrote: I'd think it was a terrible insult if someone told me how to do my job or throught that a forum post could change my plans. The RPF folks need to be left alone and when RPi4 emerges from its cocoon we can all be amazed with the pink dual e-ponies, SATA interfaces, gig ethernet, USB 3.0, 4KHDMI and rainbow unicorns that are attached to it.
Remember the late, unlamented, Odroid-W?Heater wrote: On the contrary, the PI SoC has always been unavailable to others, except possibly if they had a huge pile of money to put in a massive order to Broadcom. Then there is the little issue of the closed source GPU blob. So cloning was always off the table.
I only cited it because it really was a Pi clone, and--as you note--the only one. I would presume that they expected (should it have survived) that they wouldn't do any software work for it all, just point people to the RPF download page. How that would have fallen out, we'll never know. Still, when someone says that the Pi has never been cloned (and cites good reasons why not), one needs to point to the Odroid-W. It would be correct, I think, to say that there has never been a *viable* Pi clone.gtechn wrote:Odroid-W would never have sold. It may have been cheaper, yes, but they would have had to make their own version of Raspbian without Minecraft or Wolfram (for legal reasons), and remove all the Raspberry Pi's advertising, and maintain it, and advertise it... and at that point, why not buy a regular Raspberry Pi for slightly more money but with far more documentation and community? Then Pi 2 came out.
Odroid-W was the first and only true Raspberry Pi clone. And it didn't get really anywhere.
I would agree, but that comes down to not being able to purchase the SoC and the binary blob being licensed only for Pi use. Excluding those two issues, as Eben clearly believed, cloned Pi's would have been entirely viable.W. H. Heydt wrote:It would be correct, I think, to say that there has never been a *viable* Pi clone.
Amen.hippy wrote:Though one never knows and it may still influence. While any organisation has to decide for itself what it will do, a wise one will always listen; to what customers may want, what they may not have themselves considered, or may not have applied a great deal of attention or thought to. In fact the Foundation has in the past thanked the community for its input and it seems this has influenced them in what path to take. There is no reason to believe it would not be as such or that it is any different now.gtechn wrote:I don't think that this is meant to change plans (because it definitely won't work).
No one has to read these threads and "Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?" makes it pretty clear what type of thread it is so easy to avoid. No one is compelled to respond, nor to complain how they are a waste of time. Both are done through choice.
And who are they to say that such threads are a waste of time and deserving of criticism ? Who are they to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT and RPF ?
If Eben, Liz, or anyone from the RPT or RPF comes along and officially says they don't want to hear what suggestions, ideas and visions the community has, tells the community they are more than capable of knowing what's best for themselves and everyone, it would be a different matter.
Otherwise it's just another case of community members taking it upon themselves to tell other community members they are wrong.
It's probably wise not to take forum discussions so seriously. I have not seen any "prejudices and lies".I see a lot of prejudices and lies.
The same response I gave there applies here....if you don't like these threads, why do you read and post to them?fruitoftheloom wrote:DL has the right sentiment: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=182819#p1159859
Liz Upton said that on Jan 19, 2017. Does that mean Pi 4 is coming in... 2019???I can give you all the details right now: it's definitely not happening any time in the next year!
Me personally, I think I would.see how far I could take it in a reasonable timeframe and cost, that would depend on what was wanted and how I wanted the company and charity to be run.jamesh wrote:Well, depends on the device. Rockchip and Allwinner do devices with very similar or better (or sometimes worse) features.bensimmo wrote: *What they physically created for the cost we buy it for is wonderful, but the broadcom vc4, what extra does it do that other processors cannot do.
So lets have a thought experiment. Lets says the next version of the Pi uses one of these chips. The RPF is now reliant on these suppliers for technical support. These suppliers (and indeed suppliers of all SoC's) are notoriously bad at support, so the platform is unstable, and takes weeks or months to get fixes because the very experienced with VC4 engineers at RPF have no idea how these new chips work. Not only that, but all userland software aimed at the Pi that used to run on all previous models of Pi now no longer works. So for example Raspistill and all the camera stuff no longer works. The GPIO system has subtle differences that means some things work, but others don't. Our market fragments, we still need to support the existing 13M installed base, so our engineers are still working on the VC4, but we are getting endless support calls for the new chips Raspberry Pi4, which we are handing off to the SoC supplier because we have no in house expertise. The supplier doesn't give a damn, because the volume involved simply cannot pay for extensive support, so fixes are few and far between. The Pi name turns to mud because our product doesn't work properly, all the 3rd party HAT's don't work, and people are having to rewrite their software for the new platform.
People underestimate the amount of pain to move to a new CPU architecture, and how important backwards compatibility is for this market, and how support can make or break a product. At the RPF, right now, we have lots of engineers who worked on the VC4, which means we don't actually need any support from the SoC supplier. But we still have a great relationship with that supplier which is worth its weight in gold for future plans.
Which do YOU think is the best approach?
Sound like a plan to me, do you guys hire ?jamesh wrote:... we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
"Surprising" would to me be something unexpected, thought unlikely to be done or to be unachievable, an impressive feat to have done it.gtechn wrote:What could be "very surprising"? Obviously, if it is coming in 2019, it is probably a new piece of silicon, or... a modified one. And by a modified one, I mean a modified VideoCore...
Some things that would truly surprise me in the Pi4B (though not necessarily so in later models than that)...hippy wrote:To guess what will be surprising in the Pi 4 is hard to do. Almost anything which has been suggested and dismissed as unlikely or impossible might merit that. The ability to play native DVD and BluRay, 4K, UHD, 5.1 or digital audio, SATA, USB 3, USB-C, GigaBit ethernet, Wake-on LAN, LoM, 2GB+ RAM, SSD, battery management and low power modes, more GPIO, HDMI or composite input, GPS or 4G, wireless booting, TPM, UEFI, full support for Android or Windows on ARM.gtechn wrote:What could be "very surprising"? Obviously, if it is coming in 2019, it is probably a new piece of silicon, or... a modified one. And by a modified one, I mean a modified VideoCore...
WoL connection on the LAN9514 implemented !!!!hippy wrote:Three things I can see which would be surprising and get people talking ....
A boot ROM; boot straight to Python / BASIC without any boot media
An FPGA core on-chip
An AI Neural Net included
W. H. Heydt wrote: Not surprising at all...
These kinds of comments, makes me wonder about peoples sanity, and makes me wonder if I shouldn't lock this thread, after all. Only a competitor who wants to destroy the PI would come up with such unrealistic borderline trolling nonsense. It reads like a child's Santa Claus wishlist, no reality involved, "I want a jumbo jet, a real one....".gtechn wrote:I think that the above is quite reasonable (for now at least).
And what about a price of $125 or $95 - will it surprise you?W. H. Heydt wrote:Some things that would truly surprise me in the Pi4B (though not necessarily so in later models than that)...
CPU clock greater than 2GHz.
Direct SoC Ethernet interface.
Lower on the surprise scale (that is, surprising but not causing "where did *that* come from" whiplash)...
CPU clock of 1.5GHz
USB-C power connector
Not surprising at all...