gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 3:10 pm

See my list for a recap on why upgrades will probably be small:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=182819

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 3:59 pm

DougieLawson wrote: I'd think it was a terrible insult if someone told me how to do my job or throught that a forum post could change my plans. The RPF folks need to be left alone and when RPi4 emerges from its cocoon we can all be amazed with the pink dual e-ponies, SATA interfaces, gig ethernet, USB 3.0, 4KHDMI and rainbow unicorns that are attached to it.
If I wanted to influence future plans, I wouldn't be discussing the features that might be desired on the Pi4. I'd be talking about the Pi6. (My best guess is that the Pi4 SoC is baked in SIlicon by now and the Pi5 design concept work is probably pretty much in hand.)

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:05 pm

Heater wrote: On the contrary, the PI SoC has always been unavailable to others, except possibly if they had a huge pile of money to put in a massive order to Broadcom. Then there is the little issue of the closed source GPU blob. So cloning was always off the table.
Remember the late, unlamented, Odroid-W?

gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:14 pm

Odroid-W would never have sold. It may have been cheaper, yes, but they would have had to make their own version of Raspbian without Minecraft or Wolfram (for legal reasons), and remove all the Raspberry Pi's advertising, and maintain it, and advertise it... and at that point, why not buy a regular Raspberry Pi for slightly more money but with far more documentation and community? Then Pi 2 came out.

Odroid-W was the first and only true Raspberry Pi clone. And it didn't get really anywhere.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:22 pm

gtechn wrote:Odroid-W would never have sold. It may have been cheaper, yes, but they would have had to make their own version of Raspbian without Minecraft or Wolfram (for legal reasons), and remove all the Raspberry Pi's advertising, and maintain it, and advertise it... and at that point, why not buy a regular Raspberry Pi for slightly more money but with far more documentation and community? Then Pi 2 came out.

Odroid-W was the first and only true Raspberry Pi clone. And it didn't get really anywhere.
I only cited it because it really was a Pi clone, and--as you note--the only one. I would presume that they expected (should it have survived) that they wouldn't do any software work for it all, just point people to the RPF download page. How that would have fallen out, we'll never know. Still, when someone says that the Pi has never been cloned (and cites good reasons why not), one needs to point to the Odroid-W. It would be correct, I think, to say that there has never been a *viable* Pi clone.

hippy
Posts: 6237
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:52 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:It would be correct, I think, to say that there has never been a *viable* Pi clone.
I would agree, but that comes down to not being able to purchase the SoC and the binary blob being licensed only for Pi use. Excluding those two issues, as Eben clearly believed, cloned Pi's would have been entirely viable.

It may be a little different now with the BCM2836 and BCM2837 which the RPT/RPF presumably have some IP investment in, but they could allow use of those if they wished to.

I suppose the bottom line is clones would be viable if they were allowed to be viable, but at the moment they are non-viable because no one has an interest in making them viable.

CobraX
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:53 am

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 5:39 pm

I've been asked why I haven't designed and manufactured a better SBC for $35. I've been told there are other SBC's which fit my requirement. I've been told I think the Raspberry Pi Foundation is run by a bunch of numpties who don't know what's needed.

Yet, nobody (except for me) has access to my brain and knows what I'm thinking or what my requirements are. I see a lot of prejudices and lies. And hostile behaviour from some folks because I made a thread with the best intentions. It's sad to be honest. I'm starting to get what W. H. Heydt was trying to say in his first post...

Well, let me tell you a bit about my actual thoughts on the Raspberry Pi.

I absolutely L-O-V-E my Raspberry Pi boards (I currently have 3 of them). From all the computers I've ever owned, the Raspberry Pi is easily in my top 3. Why?

- They are very affordable.
- You can run them 24/7 without having to worry about your electric bill.
- They can be passively cooled (I love silent computers).
- They are tiny so don't take up much space.
- Even though they are really slow compared to today's powerhouse processors (Intel Core processors etc), they are great for lighter tasks.
- They give me a chance to play with Linux again without having to run VMWare or without needing a dedicated PC for it (don't like dual boot).
- The (software) support is great. Great hardware is useless without proper software support.

The list probably isn't complete. I bet I forgot some reasons why I really like my Raspberry Pi boards.

So yes, my Raspberry Pi 2 Model B V1.1 currently fits my requirements. That being said, I'm a technology enthusiast and IT person. With every product there's always room for improvement. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having a wish list for future products. It also doesn't necessarily mean that you're not satisfied with the current model.

Every day I walk into my room and see that cute, little pi sitting behind my monitors, I'm fascinated by what the Raspberry Pi Foundation has created.
hippy wrote:
gtechn wrote:I don't think that this is meant to change plans (because it definitely won't work).
Though one never knows and it may still influence. While any organisation has to decide for itself what it will do, a wise one will always listen; to what customers may want, what they may not have themselves considered, or may not have applied a great deal of attention or thought to. In fact the Foundation has in the past thanked the community for its input and it seems this has influenced them in what path to take. There is no reason to believe it would not be as such or that it is any different now.

No one has to read these threads and "Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?" makes it pretty clear what type of thread it is so easy to avoid. No one is compelled to respond, nor to complain how they are a waste of time. Both are done through choice.

And who are they to say that such threads are a waste of time and deserving of criticism ? Who are they to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT and RPF ?

If Eben, Liz, or anyone from the RPT or RPF comes along and officially says they don't want to hear what suggestions, ideas and visions the community has, tells the community they are more than capable of knowing what's best for themselves and everyone, it would be a different matter.

Otherwise it's just another case of community members taking it upon themselves to tell other community members they are wrong.
Amen. ;)

User avatar
mahjongg
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12410
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am
Location: South Holland, The Netherlands

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 7:53 pm

It is NO problem that people want to talk about their dreams, as long as they ask about somewhat realistic things, (some people may have heard about some innovations, and may want it, but do not have enough technical know-how to realize what they really are asking, so try to inform yourself before going off to ask for impossible things, like x86 compatibility).

But I also know some people are getting sick of this discussion, and may want to derail it.

To all of you I only say keep it nice and on topic, and I will try to keep the peace, which means I will delete posts that do not add to the discussion, but are simply inflammatory, or misplaced "humour".

Heater
Posts: 13900
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 8:02 pm

CobraX,
I see a lot of prejudices and lies.
It's probably wise not to take forum discussions so seriously. I have not seen any "prejudices and lies".

I have seen replies that are rather strident, perhaps interpreted as rude by some. Personally I glad that knowledgeable people make their point, even if it is blunt.

Like you, we are are all amazed by the Pi and love it. We look forward to seeing what comes down the pipe in the future. If the Foundation's track record is anything to go by it will be impressive.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 21079
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 10:46 pm

DL has the right sentiment: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=182819#p1159859
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 2:29 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:DL has the right sentiment: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=182819#p1159859
The same response I gave there applies here....if you don't like these threads, why do you read and post to them?

gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 2:15 pm

Okay. We are back on track again (now that certain people who don't like speculating are cleaned up).

Next, because it is a Pi 4, change this to What 4 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Finally, here are my (somewhat, hopefully) realistic thoughts:
- 1.5GHz 28nm Quad-Core Cortex-A53
- 2GB (or 3GB) RAM, DDR2 (soldiered-on version of course)
- Somewhat Faster IO
- The Wifi Antenna replaced with a PCB antenna like Zero W (nobody has brought up this idea yet)

VideoCore is almost certainly staying. Otherwise, why have Eric Anholt work so hard on a GL driver for it?
The 1GB of RAM limit will almost certainly be fixed somehow, due to consumer demand and practical use.
Faster IO may or may not come, due to the expense.
PCB Wifi Antenna = Pretty likely.

Finally, I need to bring up something very important:
I can give you all the details right now: it's definitely not happening any time in the next year!
Liz Upton said that on Jan 19, 2017. Does that mean Pi 4 is coming in... 2019???

gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 2:28 pm

If the Pi is coming in 2019, all of the sudden far more opportunities open!

Obviously, that is a LONG time to wait, but the more waiting, the more the RPF/RPT can do.
A Raspberry Pi Engineer has stated that the roadmap is in place and has some "very surprising" stuff on it, and that new stuff takes a LONG time to develop. If the Pi is coming 2019, it is probably because they are developing... something important.

What could be "very surprising"? Obviously, if it is coming in 2019, it is probably a new piece of silicon, or... a modified one. And by a modified one, I mean a modified VideoCore...

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 3:03 pm

jamesh wrote:
bensimmo wrote: *What they physically created for the cost we buy it for is wonderful, but the broadcom vc4, what extra does it do that other processors cannot do.
Well, depends on the device. Rockchip and Allwinner do devices with very similar or better (or sometimes worse) features.

So lets have a thought experiment. Lets says the next version of the Pi uses one of these chips. The RPF is now reliant on these suppliers for technical support. These suppliers (and indeed suppliers of all SoC's) are notoriously bad at support, so the platform is unstable, and takes weeks or months to get fixes because the very experienced with VC4 engineers at RPF have no idea how these new chips work. Not only that, but all userland software aimed at the Pi that used to run on all previous models of Pi now no longer works. So for example Raspistill and all the camera stuff no longer works. The GPIO system has subtle differences that means some things work, but others don't. Our market fragments, we still need to support the existing 13M installed base, so our engineers are still working on the VC4, but we are getting endless support calls for the new chips Raspberry Pi4, which we are handing off to the SoC supplier because we have no in house expertise. The supplier doesn't give a damn, because the volume involved simply cannot pay for extensive support, so fixes are few and far between. The Pi name turns to mud because our product doesn't work properly, all the 3rd party HAT's don't work, and people are having to rewrite their software for the new platform.

People underestimate the amount of pain to move to a new CPU architecture, and how important backwards compatibility is for this market, and how support can make or break a product. At the RPF, right now, we have lots of engineers who worked on the VC4, which means we don't actually need any support from the SoC supplier. But we still have a great relationship with that supplier which is worth its weight in gold for future plans.

Which do YOU think is the best approach?
Me personally, I think I would.see how far I could take it in a reasonable timeframe and cost, that would depend on what was wanted and how I wanted the company and charity to be run.
Do I want to be running a business for selling hardware and keeping it competitive until the platform is no longer viable with what is easy to do (company). Balancing that with the main aim to push to educate people(charity).
The Pi hardware is revenue, that could change.
Or do I take the developing money and push that it to forging hardware links and let them do that side while concentrating on the education and software side.
Or scratch the itch to get the perfect small computer device for the future climate.
It would depend what I had to play with and how long I wanted to keep doing it.

All in all Pixel/Raspian is transferable to other setups (with work) while the camera may not be but get picamera setup for usb webcams since, most uses of it must be just simplified camera usage and not the fancy stuff, and it can be used.
But at the moment you have capable hardware that will do the majority of things needed from it at the moment. (Zero/Pi3) with the other products in between.
They'll still do that in two years time.
Typing, running programs and learning will still be the same.
It only need to be faster to make it look fancier in a GUI.

Of course I'm not you lot, I don't know your motives or what you plan for the coming years or where you want to end up or if just want a job to pay for things.

But it is nice to here from the people who do all the stuff and what they want to see.

YCN-
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:18 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 3:04 pm

jamesh wrote:... we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
Sound like a plan to me, do you guys hire ?

(the quote was not deform but taken out of context on purpose ahah)

hippy
Posts: 6237
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 5:02 pm

gtechn wrote:What could be "very surprising"? Obviously, if it is coming in 2019, it is probably a new piece of silicon, or... a modified one. And by a modified one, I mean a modified VideoCore...
"Surprising" would to me be something unexpected, thought unlikely to be done or to be unachievable, an impressive feat to have done it.

The Pi Zero was surprising, for those who thought a credible $5 computer was unlikely to be possible, more so for those who said it would not or could not happen as it did.

The Pi Zero W was surprising for those who thought their wish to see a cheap Pi mass produced were going unanswered.

The Pi 3B was surprising because of the jump to 64-bit and being able to USB and network boot were not expected.

To guess what will be surprising in the Pi 4 is hard to do. Almost anything which has been suggested and dismissed as unlikely or impossible might merit that. The ability to play native DVD and BluRay, 4K, UHD, 5.1 or digital audio, SATA, USB 3, USB-C, GigaBit ethernet, Wake-on LAN, LoM, 2GB+ RAM, SSD, battery management and low power modes, more GPIO, HDMI or composite input, GPS or 4G, wireless booting, TPM, UEFI, full support for Android or Windows on ARM.

A new Wi-Fi antenna, 5GHz wireless, FM radio, more cores, faster speed, on-board or on-chip RTC, dual-NIC, UART baud rates which don't change with clock speed, accelerometers and compass, black or coloured PCB's, are really tweaks, great but not a massive "wow" which I believe is what a surprise would merit. A "wow" like when it was thought Windows 10 Desktop was coming to the Pi until that turned out to be Windows 10 IoT.

Or maybe the surprise will be more of a curve ball; arriving in 2018, a different footprint, connectors all on one side, a stacked multi-board combo, or a new cheap CM format system, support for SO-DIMM memory, maybe there's more which can come on the SDIO bus. Or even a free unicorn. A tie-in with My Little Pony might be amusing. There may be other partner inspired things. Virtual Reality is the new big thing.

It's one thing saying what one would like, arguing the merits of that, but I don't see the point of trying to guess what will actually be delivered because that could be anything. It simply is a guessing game with no benefit to anyone. Maybe it will be the world's first sub $100 quantum computer. That would be a surprise to everyone.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 5:13 pm

hippy wrote:
gtechn wrote:What could be "very surprising"? Obviously, if it is coming in 2019, it is probably a new piece of silicon, or... a modified one. And by a modified one, I mean a modified VideoCore...
To guess what will be surprising in the Pi 4 is hard to do. Almost anything which has been suggested and dismissed as unlikely or impossible might merit that. The ability to play native DVD and BluRay, 4K, UHD, 5.1 or digital audio, SATA, USB 3, USB-C, GigaBit ethernet, Wake-on LAN, LoM, 2GB+ RAM, SSD, battery management and low power modes, more GPIO, HDMI or composite input, GPS or 4G, wireless booting, TPM, UEFI, full support for Android or Windows on ARM.
Some things that would truly surprise me in the Pi4B (though not necessarily so in later models than that)...
4GB RAM.
USB3.1
CPU clock greater than 2GHz.
SATA connector.
Direct SoC Ethernet interface.

Lower on the surprise scale (that is, surprising but not causing "where did *that* come from" whiplash)...
2GB RAM
CPU clock of 1.5GHz
USB-C power connector

Not surprising at all...
USB 3.0
GbE
Upgraded VC
28nm part

gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Wed May 10, 2017 10:45 pm

I think that the above is quite reasonable (for now at least).

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11086
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 2:58 am

It occurs to me that there are a couple of other features that *might* be feasible at some point (and probably sooner rather than later) that would be extremely popular...at least in some quarters...

Analog (mic) audio input. Move composite video to a header (the way it's done on the Pi0/Pi0W) and put an analog audio input on the other pole of the TRRS jack.

Add some analog input pins. This probably comes under the, "well...if you're looking at the silicon anyway..." category unless it is economically feasible to add an on-board ADC chip with 4 to 8 channels.

I will concede that these would be "little things" and most speculation about future features tend to be "big things", but sometimes it's the little stuff that gets people really excited.

hippy
Posts: 6237
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:10 am

Three things I can see which would be surprising and get people talking ....

A boot ROM; boot straight to Python / BASIC without any boot media
An FPGA core on-chip
An AI Neural Net included

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 21079
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:14 am

hippy wrote:Three things I can see which would be surprising and get people talking ....

A boot ROM; boot straight to Python / BASIC without any boot media
An FPGA core on-chip
An AI Neural Net included
WoL connection on the LAN9514 implemented !!!!
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

User avatar
mahjongg
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12410
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am
Location: South Holland, The Netherlands

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:42 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: Not surprising at all...
USB 3.0
GbE
Upgraded VC
28nm part
gtechn wrote:I think that the above is quite reasonable (for now at least).
These kinds of comments, makes me wonder about peoples sanity, and makes me wonder if I shouldn't lock this thread, after all. Only a competitor who wants to destroy the PI would come up with such unrealistic borderline trolling nonsense. It reads like a child's Santa Claus wishlist, no reality involved, "I want a jumbo jet, a real one....".
Please keep it sane!

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24143
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:44 am

Had a few reports on this thread as a waste of time. Well, I agree (But I do know more...), but I'm going to let it run a bit longer, because it keeps people in one place. Going to lock any other threads though.

Just keep it sane.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

i486
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:41 pm
Location: BG

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:50 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:Some things that would truly surprise me in the Pi4B (though not necessarily so in later models than that)...
4GB RAM.
USB3.1
CPU clock greater than 2GHz.
SATA connector.
Direct SoC Ethernet interface.

Lower on the surprise scale (that is, surprising but not causing "where did *that* come from" whiplash)...
2GB RAM
CPU clock of 1.5GHz
USB-C power connector

Not surprising at all...
USB 3.0
GbE
Upgraded VC
28nm part
And what about a price of $125 or $95 - will it surprise you?

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10500
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK
Contact: Twitter YouTube

Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Thu May 11, 2017 8:52 am

obviosly what you need
is
the silicon off http://www.asix.com.tw/products.php?op= ... 131;71;112
welded to the PI3 SOC
on a 28nm die ...
should be able to knock it together in a couple of months - with a couple of re-spins to get it right
re-do a carrier board , keep the same footprint

and bobs your aunties live in lover as they say ...

job done for a small while
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

Return to “General discussion”