hippy
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 10:59 am

jamesh wrote:Making an ARM CPU based SoC is easy. You just buy the plans from ARM and make the chip. Making a GPU is really really NOT easy. You could use MALI, just buy plans from ARM, but that is missing a lot of features of the VC4 (camera ISP is a prime example, and what about H264 encode/decode?), so where does that come from?
Is any of that really needed ? Particularly to fulfil the educational goals of the Pi.

I agree it's all good to have, may be needed for the Pi to have a decent future beyond its direct educational goals, better able to compete with other SBC's, but little of it is absolutely essential for the primary goal the Pi has.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:15 am

gregeric wrote:Use an off the shelf GPU/SoC & the cloners will be very happy. Meanwhile, RPiF's revenue stream will suffer.
It was a dream of the Foundation just a few years ago that others would be cloning the Pi increasing availability for all and sundry. It was all about encouraging people to get into programming and coding, helping people, bettering the world, not generating revenue streams.

Of course, as 'Raspberry Pi' has become a tens-of-millions of pound business, the Foundation now needs to protect its multi-million pound revenue stream to deliver as it desires to, needs to battle with competitors who may impact that revenue stream.

'Raspberry Pi' is now a business as much as it is a movement. That's just the way life is.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:30 am

hippy wrote:
gregeric wrote:Use an off the shelf GPU/SoC & the cloners will be very happy. Meanwhile, RPiF's revenue stream will suffer.
It was a dream of the Foundation just a few years ago that others would be cloning the Pi increasing availability for all and sundry. It was all about encouraging people to get into programming and coding, helping people, bettering the world, not generating revenue streams.

Of course, as 'Raspberry Pi' has become a tens-of-millions of pound business, the Foundation now needs to protect its multi-million pound revenue stream to deliver as it desires to, needs to battle with competitors who may impact that revenue stream.

'Raspberry Pi' is now a business as much as it is a movement. That's just the way life is.
I was not aware RPT / RPF were encouraging RPi Cloning, where did that come from ??
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:43 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:I was not aware RPT / RPF were encouraging RPi Cloning, where did that come from ??
http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/11 ... -questions

"We’ve said elsewhere that our dream scenario is that someone in China decides to copy our design and start knocking out millions of clones. Remember we’re a not-for-profit organization under English law, and all our trustees have other jobs, so we don’t have the same set of incentives as a regular company."

http://www.businessinsider.com/inside-t ... 11-12?IR=T

"We're intending to release the designs for the device at due cost. We can't make any money out of this, we have no incentive to keep the design of the device secret.

We do hope third parties will be able to manufacture clones. We can expand the concept without having to expand the capital base."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/d ... spberry-pi

"Everything we do is aimed at fostering this sort of community activity, whether it's around software, accessories, or (in due course) licensed and open-source clone manufacture. We're a small organisation which does one thing well; we certainly don't want to stand in the way of third parties who want to add value and make money around the platform."

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:51 am

Gesh, those are all 5-6 years old, so it's not surprising they are all irrelevant now.
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:54 am

Fair enough but it was said with caveats, obviously EU & co.. felt the caveats outweighed the actual actual implementation.

Seems the biggest stumbling block was getting Broadcom to "open" the SoC !
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:13 pm

PeterO wrote:Gesh, those are all 5-6 years old, so it's not surprising they are all irrelevant now.
I was only supplying evidence to support what I had said which had been queried. How relevant it is I will leave others to judge.

That was then, this is now, things change, and I am not saying they should not. One day everything is possible, the next day one has revenue streams which need protecting, plans which require revenue to be fulfilled. I don't have a problem with that. That's the nature of business.

Whether it would be acceptable to move to a different SoC and open 'Raspberry Pi' to cloning which may reduce revenue to the Foundation is a matter of debate which we will all have opinions on. There are advantages and disadvantages, arguments both for and against. No matter what any of us think it's for RPT and RPF to decide their future path, though that shouldn't preclude anyone from stating their own views and opinions.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:46 pm

bensimmo wrote:
jamesh wrote:....

And finally, the RPF is entirely aware of the limitation of the Pi. Do people think that we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
I doubt they do, but with recent talk on website mentioning Pi4 (be it ideas, from Ebon chats). Enthusiastic people who like the products are always going to want to talk about it, say what's good, bad and could be improved.
The only thing I've ever seen that Eben said about the "Pi4" was at the launch of the Pi3B when he said (paraphrasing), "Don't expect the next model for 2 to 3 years." He didn't even call the "next model" the Pi4.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:51 pm

Wait a minute... Is the RPF working on the VideoCore Hardware? (Or just Software?)
Probably, I was 6 years at Brcm, then another 2 elsewhere, now done a few months at RPF, and when I joined Brcm, the VC3 was just being tested out. So that's 8 years at least, plus the extra few years for the earlier versions. Total dev must be getting on for 15 years at least.
And finally, the RPF is entirely aware of the limitation of the Pi. Do people think that we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
The VideoCore V has had the 3D GPU implemented, in a chip from Broadcom, somewhere. My dream scenario would be that the RPF takes what is finished of the VideoCore V in the 3D Graphics area, and bolt on parts of the VideoCore IV that already work to make a hybrid VideoCore V/IV.

Point is: The VideoCore is not replaceable. It needs to be upgraded, or the Pi needs to start afresh. And besides, if the Pi Foundation was moving to a new core, why on earth would Mr. Anholt be working on a graphics driver for (like, 3 years) for a soon-to-be-obsolete (in 1 or 2 years) piece of hardware?

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:52 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
bensimmo wrote:
jamesh wrote:....

And finally, the RPF is entirely aware of the limitation of the Pi. Do people think that we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
I doubt they do, but with recent talk on website mentioning Pi4 (be it ideas, from Ebon chats). Enthusiastic people who like the products are always going to want to talk about it, say what's good, bad and could be improved.
The only thing I've ever seen that Eben said about the "Pi4" was at the launch of the Pi3B when he said (paraphrasing), "Don't expect the next model for 2 to 3 years." He didn't even call the "next model" the Pi4.
Technically, that was FALSE. We got the Pi Zero v1.3 and the Pi Zero W!

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:53 pm

Eben seems to have acknowledged the next generation will be the Pi 4 ...

http://www.itpro.co.uk/strategy/28278/e ... berry-pi-4
According to Upton, the projected lifecycle of the Raspberry Pi 3 is around three years, meaning that there is likely to be at least two more years until the foundation releases a new iteration of its single-board computer. "It's a long road to get to Pi 4," Upton said, "but we'll get there eventually."

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:54 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
jamesh wrote:Which do YOU think is the best approach?
Personally speaking I would like to see a VC5 which can address up to 2GB Memory and somewhere beyond
that Aarm64 Raspbian and beyond that a ARM OctaCore CPU -- that is the next five years or so covered.
If I were setting the design criteria for a "VC5", I would specify that it be able to address at least 4GB and possibly as much as 16GB. Would I expect to see that much memory on a Pi any time soon? No. But it would "future proof" the design for a good way off.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:55 pm

RaTTuS wrote:e-ponies that's what I want - dual e-ponies if possible
OMG, these threads are tedious in the extreme. The OP arrives thinking the Raspberry Pi Foundation is run by a bunch of numpties who don't know what's needed and aren't already working on the next generation of Raspberry or the next funky AIY+ add-on HAT or whatever.

I'd think it was a terrible insult if someone told me how to do my job or throught that a forum post could change my plans. The RPF folks need to be left alone and when RPi4 emerges from its cocoon we can all be amazed with the pink dual e-ponies, SATA interfaces, gig ethernet, USB 3.0, 4KHDMI and rainbow unicorns that are attached to it.
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:58 pm

PeterO wrote:Gesh, those are all 5-6 years old, so it's not surprising they are all irrelevant now.
PeterO
I'd say that they got their wish and then some. The existence of the RPi over the last few years has encouraged a parallel clone market that provides a wide array of low priced and/or highly capable products. The various RPi models have great support, are steadily improving and satisfy the community/educational goals of the founders. For people who have edge cases that need something similar, but not satisfied by the current RPi products, there are a plethora of similar SBCs to choose from. I have a feeling that a large percentage of the people asking for more capable RPi products are just looking for cheap Linux computers for their self-serving projects. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the RPF's goal to be a worldwide supplier of little Linux machines that sell at cost.

If you need a blazing fast ARM64 Linux SBC for your project, there are several to choose from (see nvidia.com and 96boards.org). If you just need a fast ARM laptop for software development work use crouton on a Chromebook. On the other hand, if you want a $35 "Raspberry Pi" branded SBC from RPF with a 2Ghz Quad core ARMv8, 2GB RAM, PCIe, 1Gb Ethernet, etc, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:59 pm

I'd think it was a terrible insult if someone told me how to do my job or throught that a forum post could change my plans. The RPF folks need to be left alone and when RPi4 emerges from its cocoon we can all be amazed with the pink dual e-ponies, SATA interfaces, gig ethernet, USB 3.0, 4KHDMI and rainbow unicorns that are attached to it.
I don't think that this is meant to change plans (because it definitely won't work). I think it is fun trying to figure out why something might or might not work for the RPF and guess what they are cooking up by using reason and logic (as well as pricing sheets and technical information).

Everybody read this for questions about RAM GPU upgrades (I asked these questions):
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=168569&p=1083502&h ... s#p1083502

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:00 pm

It's still a total waste of ones and zeros and a waste of the time taken for folks to read and reply.
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:04 pm

According to a post from the RPF, every major change to the VideoCore has a several million dollar cost (on average, give or take).

Removing the 1GB limit? Hand over a few million or more.
Adding H.265 support? Hand over another few million or more.
Faster IO, USB 3? Hand over yet another few million or more.

The RPF simply can't afford to do everything everyone wants.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:22 pm

gtechn wrote:I don't think that this is meant to change plans (because it definitely won't work).
Though one never knows and it may still influence. While any organisation has to decide for itself what it will do, a wise one will always listen; to what customers may want, what they may not have themselves considered, or may not have applied a great deal of attention or thought to. In fact the Foundation has in the past thanked the community for its input and it seems this has influenced them in what path to take. There is no reason to believe it would not be as such or that it is any different now.

No one has to read these threads and "Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?" makes it pretty clear what type of thread it is so easy to avoid. No one is compelled to respond, nor to complain how they are a waste of time. Both are done through choice.

And who are they to say that such threads are a waste of time and deserving of criticism ? Who are they to presume to speak on behalf of the RPT and RPF ?

If Eben, Liz, or anyone from the RPT or RPF comes along and officially says they don't want to hear what suggestions, ideas and visions the community has, tells the community they are more than capable of knowing what's best for themselves and everyone, it would be a different matter.

Otherwise it's just another case of community members taking it upon themselves to tell other community members they are wrong.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:24 pm

fruitoftheloom,
That is about the best response so far :D
I think you have a point there.
Should of posted that also in the Risc-V thread
But that does not really follow. Nobody knows the internals of the ARM processor. Only the instruction set changes when moving to RISC V. Which is of little consequence as the VC4 is a totally separtate thing.

Having said that, I don't expect a switch to RISC V any time soon. And I don't expect the VC4 would be used with RISC V anyway.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:26 pm

gtechn wrote:According to a post from the RPF, every major change to the VideoCore has a several million dollar cost (on average, give or take).

Removing the 1GB limit? Hand over a few million or more.
Adding H.265 support? Hand over another few million or more.
Faster IO, USB 3? Hand over yet another few million or more.

The RPF simply can't afford to do everything everyone wants.

A VC5 was being worked on when "old" Broadcom closed the Mobile Phone Chip Division.

Broadcom hold the IPR for any work undertaken.

RPT have many of the hardware / software staff from "old" Broadcom Mobile Phone Division
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:33 pm

It was a dream of the Foundation just a few years ago that others would be cloning the Pi increasing availability for all and sundry.
I don't recall such cloning ever being a dream of the Foundation. Do you have any links to such statements?

On the contrary, the PI SoC has always been unavailable to others, except possibly if they had a huge pile of money to put in a massive order to Broadcom. Then there is the little issue of the closed source GPU blob. So cloning was always off the table.


Edit: Ah, just found your links. Thanks. Interesting, those statements seem a bit odd given the points I made above. It's inviting cloning the Pi whilst knowing that cloning is all but impossible !
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Heater wrote:
It was a dream of the Foundation just a few years ago that others would be cloning the Pi increasing availability for all and sundry.
I don't recall such cloning ever being a dream of the Foundation. Do you have any links to such statements?

On the contrary, the PI SoC has always been unavailable to others, except possibly if they had a huge pile of money to put in a massive order to Broadcom. Then there is the little issue of the closed source GPU blob. So cloning was always off the table.


Edit: Ah, just found your links. Thanks. Interesting, those statements seem a bit odd given the points I made above. It's inviting cloning the Pi whilst knowing that cloning is all but impossible !
Did you not read the 5\6 year old web pages Hippy linked to ??
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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:49 pm

fruitoftheloom,
Did you not read the 5\6 year old web pages Hippy linked to ??
No, I did not. I probably won't, I'm about to start a busy day...

But I did read the quotes from those links that hippy kindly reproduced here. I assume they are the salient points. They do not contradict what I said above.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Heater wrote:Edit: Ah, just found your links. Thanks. Interesting, those statements seem a bit odd given the points I made above. It's inviting cloning the Pi whilst knowing that cloning is all but impossible !
Perhaps they thought, having secured a deal with Broadcom to buy SoC's at a price others could not obtain, they would be able to act as resellers or middle-men to those who wanted to clone, able to buy in quantities which Broadcom likes while allowing cloners to buy smaller quantities from them. That's pretty much the model most component distributors work to.

I more likely suspect that they were thinking, if they did make the Pi available for cloning and the Chinese jump on the bandwagon, those doing that cloning would manufacture in such quantity that they could secure direct purchases in the quantities Broadcom would entertain.

That first possibility might still be on the cards today if RPT/RPF were inclined to do that. There seems no reason the manufacturer of the SoC would want to restrict sales only to RPT/RPF usage and it would probably be illegal if they did, and there seems no reason they would want to restrict their profits by limiting sales. It would seem the more RPT/RPF buy the better it would be for them. There may however be legal, commercial and capacity issues I don't know about.

Added: In some ways the Pi is already a clone product, both RS and Farnell producing clones of the RPT/RPF design. I don't know if RS and Farnell buy their SoC's direct from whoever makes it, through RPT, Sony or whoever.

Second Added: It also has to be remembered that Eben was talking at a time where it was believed only 10,000 units would be sold and the Foundation had no capacity or funds to produce in quantity, so third-party cloners were a good vision for mass production. Only when it looked like there was demand for 100,000 were RS and Farnell bought on board as a means to satisfy that demand. Had everyone known and accepted that 10 million Pi's would be sold things may have been done very differently, but no one believed that at the time. Even my own 'wildly optimistic predictions' were well short of the mark.
Last edited by hippy on Tue May 09, 2017 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which 3 things do you want to see in the Raspberry Pi 4?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:58 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
bensimmo wrote:
jamesh wrote:....

And finally, the RPF is entirely aware of the limitation of the Pi. Do people think that we are just going to sit back, relax, chill, drink beer and just watch the money flow in?
I doubt they do, but with recent talk on website mentioning Pi4 (be it ideas, from Ebon chats). Enthusiastic people who like the products are always going to want to talk about it, say what's good, bad and could be improved.
The only thing I've ever seen that Eben said about the "Pi4" was at the launch of the Pi3B when he said (paraphrasing), "Don't expect the next model for 2 to 3 years." He didn't even call the "next model" the Pi4.
IT's mentioned a few time, mainly as people always ask or at least the articles sidetrack into it.

It' pops up in the my feeds.
He's one from a short while ago
http://www.itpro.co.uk/strategy/28278/e ... berry-pi-4

I assume he's taking time out now creating an IoT cot that responds to baby speak via Google AIY

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