Benedict White
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:55 am

radu said:


And it is not 3 times more expensive than the RasPI, it is at about the same price, after you add a mouse, keyboard, psu, wifi, headphones, perhaps a USB hub..

And if you are not that poor, then you can just get a normal PC or a more expensive tablet.

Again, I am not saying the RasPI doesn't have uses. It has a lot of uses, and I am going to get one for my hobbies. But I am not poor, and I don't need to learn programming (I have almost 20 years of programming experience).


Er.. I don't need headphones, but of I did I could borrow them from another device that has them. Kids will also do this.

I don't need wifi. For the time kids actually NEED internet access they can get cable access.

I already have power supplies with the relevant connector they tend to come with mobile phones. Key board and mouse may be an issue... a bit, but you also don't need a USB hub. (Not saying it wouldn't be nice).

But if you want it for programming it's a great way to start.

How many Android tablets can you actually get to run Eclipse with the SDK installed? I have it on my ArchLinux PC at home, but can you get it on Android?

radu
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:12 am

Look, there are two kinds of people:

Those who can afford a decent computer, and those who don't.

Those who can afford a decent computer already have a cellphone which they can use the PSU for the RasPI, they have headphones, they have nice HDMI TVs, keyboards, etc. And they don't need a RasPI, because besides for hardware programming (GPIO) it is inferior to a cheap desktop.

Those who can not afford a decent computer most likely do not have a cellphone with a compatible power supply (only some newer phones have that). They likely do not have headphones, they may or may not have a TV. And if they have a TV, their parents probably want to use it as a TV. And they most likely don't have Internet access. So WiFi is important because they can use the WiFi from a neighbor, school, library, etc.

Point3Forever
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:21 am

radu said:


Look, there are two kinds of people:

Those who can afford a decent computer, and those who don't.

Those who can afford a decent computer already have a cellphone which they can use the PSU for the RasPI, they have headphones, they have nice HDMI TVs, keyboards, etc. And they don't need a RasPI, because besides for hardware programming (GPIO) it is inferior to a cheap desktop.

Those who can not afford a decent computer most likely do not have a cellphone with a compatible power supply (only some newer phones have that). They likely do not have headphones, they may or may not have a TV. And if they have a TV, their parents probably want to use it as a TV. And they most likely don't have Internet access. So WiFi is important because they can use the WiFi from a neighbor, school, library, etc.


As a preface I find myself in the perspective of being the target demographic of the raspberry pi.

I have a couple of counter-arguments to make, as well as some things to think about. As I understand it, the raspberry-pi is meant to help kids learn about computers and programming. It would give them an opportunity to work with a device without worrying about breaking anything.

Tablets seem to go right against this. Most run android, are fairly locked-down, and are geared towards consumers. The only way I've found to program on them would be with an with online ide such as ideone. If you try to go deeper into the operating system to attempt to root it, you run the risk of bricking it.

You wouldn't understand the worry I had trying to install ubuntu only to screw up the family pc's bootloader.

For me, the raspberry-pi provides a good platform for programming. I could try many different programming languages and software development tools without family members caring about having four different ide's installed, and numerous other tools. It would also give me a chance to do development while others are on the family computer.

You do mention using a desktop instead of a raspberry pi. While this is a valid point, there are a couple issues. First, the size of a raspberry pi would allow it to be moved from school and home, and around a home easily. A desktop is quite large, and often noisy. You mention cheap desktops as a better alternative to the raspberry pi. Unless you're fortunate enough to get a full computer for free, a raspberry pi presents a better deal for the purposes it is trying to fulfill.

I think that many issues that people are having with the raspberry pi are the things that it wasn't designed to be for anyways. What it attempts to do well it succeeds at, it is a cheap, accessible, open, well-featured, and well-supported piece of hardware. Every single one of those points is important, and will be important to the success of the project.

These tablets only have the first.

radu
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:24 am

The thing is, you can install many Linux distros on USB sticks. So you don't make any changes to the 'host' computer, no risk of damaging anything, no installing stuff on their HDDs, no touching the boot loader.

You can take that stick and use it on a school computer, on a laptop, on a cheap computer in your room, etc.

And you can't move the RasPI around the house just like that, because it is tied to a TV. If you want to do some programming on it you need a place where you have a TV next to a desk or something so you can use a keyboard/mouse.

If you don't have your own computer, but live in a 'first world' country, and the parents don't mind you using their big TV for your project, the RasPI is a decent choice for stuff such as programming, e-mail, light web browsing, and some movies/music.

But if your parents won't buy you a computer, I am sure you can find a nice neighbor or family friend or relative that has an older desktop they want to get rid of.

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Jessie
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:36 am

Why does it have to be next to a TV?  There are plenty of monitors with HDMI ports.  They may not be as avalible in poor countries but they are not uncommon.  Plus in the case of a poor household you are implying that there would only be one TV set.  While this may be the case in some places it won't always be the case.  Cheap TV sets with composite inputs can be had relitively inexpensivly in order to serve as a monitor for people.

There can be a million arguments why something wouldn't work, but no one is really trying hard to give these people a reasonable solution right now.  A $75 tablet is not affordable enough for someone in a 3rd world country unless the government buys it for them.  $25 is still pretty pricy for them, but it isn't a complete hurdle.  After that finding a keyboard, mouse, and compatible TV set should not be a challenge.  Buying an inexpensive SD card will add some to the cost, but hopefully (in due time) there will be enough donations comming into the foundation to offset that cost for people in 3rd world locations.

There may be an argument for Wifi for poor families in 1st world nations but no where else.  These people will also have access to the internet at libraries, schools, and genereous neghbor's houses.  But for a person in a 3rd world country it is just a waste of time... Do you think there is a hot-spot in central Africa?  There may be some to get in on in places like Inda but for the vast majority of 3rd world nations it dosn't make any sense to increase the cost of this device for them to have a Wifi module that picks up nothing.  I'm sure in due time there will be an inexpensive computer for $25 with everything like KB, mouse, Wifi, ect., but right now it isn't economically feasable.

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scep
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:57 am

radu said:



You can take that stick and use it on a school computer,


Not in any school I've worked in you can't. For some reason the network managers don't like teenagers being able to take over their machines and do pretty much what they want to them ;)

Benedict White
Posts: 224
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:32 am

radu said:


Look, there are two kinds of people:

Those who can afford a decent computer, and those who don"t.

Those who can afford a decent computer already have a cellphone which they can use the PSU for the RasPI, they have headphones, they have nice HDMI TVs, keyboards, etc. And they don"t need a RasPI, because besides for hardware programming (GPIO) it is inferior to a cheap desktop.

Those who can not afford a decent computer most likely do not have a cellphone with a compatible power supply (only some newer phones have that). They likely do not have headphones, they may or may not have a TV. And if they have a TV, their parents probably want to use it as a TV. And they most likely don"t have Internet access. So WiFi is important because they can use the WiFi from a neighbor, school, library, etc.


Radu...

Where to begin...

The Raspberry Pi is meant in part to deal with a problem in the UK. That means NOT rural India China or Africa. It would be nice if they could solve all the worlds problems, but they are seeking to deal with the UK's. If that's a problem to you, deal with it.

TVs are in most households in the UK. For the primary purpose of the R Pi, internet access is a bonus not a requirement. In a refugee camp on the Somali/Kenyan border that would be an issue, but as the R Pi is not meant for there, it's not an issue that is being addressed, if that is a problem to you deal with it.

The reality is that if people can't get hold of the right type of mobile phone charger, they can wire 3 AA batteries together and power it over the GPIO connectors or hack a different mobile phone charger. They may require help with this, I suspect that there will be people who will help.

radu
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:36 am

So kids in the UK don't have enough money to get a cheapish netbook? I don't live in the UK, but it was my impression that it is a pretty socialist country, where the government gives you everything if you are poor

Tomo2k
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 am

Cheap netbook? Hah! They aren't cheap anymore - God only knows why, but they cost the same as a 15" laptop these days, and going by recent developments they're a dying form factor to boot.

There's a notable difference between a 300 quid device and a 20-30 quid device.

Which one are parents going to let their kids play with, and which are they going to be nervous about breaking?

Which one can your average kid afford with a few weeks pocket money?

Finally - the Raspberry Pi is intended to get people programming.

Touchscreen is great for multimedia consumption and capacitive is good for drag'n'drop style interfaces.

However, you won't write a significant program on a touchscreen, not even capacitive, because it's painful and slow.

If you want a cheap, portable machine for consuming media, then these 70 quid tablets are worth considering and may be a better choice than a Raspberry.

If you want to learn programming or creating content, a tablet is the wrong choice.

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cnxsoft
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:27 am


radu said:


Not everyone needs GPIO, not everyone has a compatible TV, not everyone has reliable power supply, the RasPi doesn"t come with wifi, power supply, case, any input devices, and can"t be used by itself. A tablet can.



I have a project where I won't need keyboard, mouse nor Wi-Fi.

The R-Pi could be used by itself as a simple computer to browse the Internet, check emails, do word processing etc…

PS: I don't really understand why we have this thread.

Benedict White
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:02 pm

radu said:


So kids in the UK don't have enough money to get a cheapish netbook? I don't live in the UK, but it was my impression that it is a pretty socialist country, where the government gives you everything if you are poor


No.

Codyak
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:49 pm


radu said:


So kids in the UK don't have enough money to get a cheapish netbook? I don't live in the UK, but it was my impression that it is a pretty socialist country, where the government gives you everything if you are poor



This is what happens when you watch Fox News all day…

Bootsy
Posts: 11
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:15 pm

radu said:


So kids in the UK don't have enough money to get a cheapish netbook? I don't live in the UK, but it was my impression that it is a pretty socialist country, where the government gives you everything if you are poor



Having been one of the poor, 2 years unemployed, I have to laugh at this.

Listen carefully, it isn't a happy laugh.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of the UK social security system. During the last winter we had to choose between good quality food or fuel to heat the house.

Thankfully I now have a job and can afford the needs of my family and a few luxuries too.

A cheap secondhand PC is great for soc-media, a tablet is great for mobile. I'm looking at R-Pi for the educational.

Piw32
Posts: 82
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:06 am

You CAN write programs on  Android devices :

RFO BASIC!:

http://www.laughton.com/basic/ 

RFO BASIC! is a dialect of Dartmouth Basic that allows you to write and run programs directly on your Android device. In addition to the traditional Basic features, your have access to:

Graphics (with Multi-touch),
SQL,
GPS,
Device Sensors,
Music Play,
Tone Generation,
Camera,
Data Structures such as:Array/List/Stack
Internet Browsing,
Text and Byte file I/O,
Encryption,
User defined functions,
FTP Client,
TCP/IP Client and Server Sockets

BASIC! programs may be complied into applications. There are two processes provided for this. One process generates a home screen shortcut but requires BASIC! installed to run. The other process generates a stand alone application that does not need BASIC! installed. The resulting application can be offered on the Android Market.

Mobile Basic:

https://market.android.com/details?id=c ... ullVersion 

Mobile BASIC is an Android Application that allows you to easily develop small program directly on your Android Phone or Tablet. Mobile BASIC can be used to write a variety of applications including:- Personal Productivity, Business, Education and Special Interest Applications.

FEATURES

o Structured Dialect of BASIC:- No line numbers, IF THEN ELSEIF ELSE ENDING, REPEAT UNTIL, WHILE ENDWHILE etc.
o Strongly Typed Language with 8 data types: BOOLEAN, BYTE, SHORT, INTEGER, LONG, FLOAT



and a lot of programming languages are available :

Python

Pascal

Mintoris
Light Basic Interpreter
Lumah – Lua

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Jongoleur
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Location: O'erlooking the sea, and all those effin windfarms...

Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 am

Piw32 said:


You CAN write programs on  Android devices :



Theres no denying that it can be done.  However, on something that is competitive with the Rasp Pi, eg a 7" tablet with a resistive screen and an older version of Android, then it WILL be a disheartening experience.  The amount of program visible on screen, coupled with the area taken up by the on-screen keyboard will make the flow/structure of the program being developed difficult to appreciate, especially for a novice.  And keyboards on a resistive screen will have the bones of your fingertips popping through the skin in short order!  External keyboards will be useful here, but its an additional cost.

I've had experiece of trying to develop on a 7" linux device; the original 7" eeePC was a marvellous device (it even had a built in keyboard!) but trying to write php scripts on its tiny screen was enough to make your brain squeak!  Luckily the eeePC had a VGA port so it could be connected to an external monitor, thats something that doesn't often exist on cheap 7" tablets either and tends to reduce portability, which is the main objective to using a tablet. 

10" tablets are more practicable, but even the cheapest of those are at least 8 times the price of a Pi.

Sooooooooooooo....
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

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bazza14
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:37 am

I'm looking at the Pi as a base for building low volume smart appliances (I don't mean domestic appliances). It is far more cost effective to start with a clean building block than to buy a larger device and pull out the bits you want. My 2cents.
LINUX convert since 2003

nichobb
Posts: 82
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:43 pm

@Piw32 another way to code on Android is SL4A, supports python 2.6.2, php, jRuby and others – not the best ide but usable. I"m using it to learn python on before going back to work.
Presonally I think a fuller desktop OS would be better to develop on, I"m not a massive fan of Android, clunky with touch and mouse clunkier and keyboards special characters hit and miss. ICS alpha testing in a few weeks on my next holiday, so may change mind.

Link to setting SL4A up:
http://hopeitcanhelp.blogspot......oding.html

edit: trying to get link to work

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am


Bookings for the long-awaited Aakash, pegged at 2,500 rupees ($41), began on December 14, two months after it was unveiled as the "computer for the masses" in India where millions struggle to fund their education.

Datawind, the British company contracted by the Indian government to manufacture Aakash, said it had been taken by surprise by the response in India, where Apple's iPad computers costs a minimum of $600.

"The current response is overwhelming," a spokeswoman at the company's New Delhi PR agency told AFP in an email that detailed the number of bookings made so far.

Datawind is now taking orders for an upgraded version, called Ubislate 7 for March, and it will establish three new factories in 2012 to cope with the rush of orders.

Critics had warned the device might struggle to live up to expectations with its limited 256-megabyte random access memory (RAM).

The price of what has been dubbed "the world's cheapest computer" should fall to $35 and could even be hammered down as low as $10, DataWind has said.

The Aakash is part of a push to increase the number of students in higher education and to give them the technological skills needed to further boost the country's recent rapid economic growth.



http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....dia.html 

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johnbeetem
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:08 pm

OLPC news in Geek Times: http://www.eetimes.com/electro.....3-0-Tablet



Marvell and One Laptop per Child Unveil the XO 3.0 Tablet


Sylvie Barak

Marvell Semiconductor Inc. and non-profit organization One Laptop per Child (OLPC) have finally unveiled the XO 3.0 tablet after years of speculation, saying it will show off the device at the 2012 International Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas.
...
Built on Marvell’s Armada PXA618 SOC processor and Avastar Wi-Fi SOC, with 512MB of RAM, the 8-inch XO 3.0 tablet is purported to be very thin and boasts some rather unique charging circuitry, being the only tablet able to draw charge directly from solar panels, hand cranks and other alternative power sources.

OLPC has said the two-watt system is even capable of 10 minutes of runtime from just one minute of hand cranking.

The tablet can be configured to sport either a standard LCD or Pixel Qi sunlight-readable display at 1024 x 768-resolution and can run either the Android or OLPC’s Sugar Linux operating system, built specifically for children.
Not a $50 tablet, but it will be interesting to see what they show at CES.

Piw32
Posts: 82
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:13 am

Now only $37.5 for a 8 inch tablet :

http://micdigi.com/2012/06/benya-7-inch ... on-prices/
They are all based on Samsung PV210 solution and Power VRSGX540 GPU.
Configurations: Samsung PV210 solution, Cortex A8 core, 512M memory, Bluetooth, HDMI, TF card slot, USB port, camera for video chat.

Piw32
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:14 pm

This is insane, why prices a going so low ?

7 inch tablet for 25€ or $31 : http://micdigi.com/2012/06/the-7-inch-t ... y-199-rmb/
The Amlogic 8726 has some Linux support.
The 7-inch tablet based on Amlogic sells for only 199 RMB.
Configurations: Amlogic 8726 solution, 512M memory, 4G storage, 7-inch resistive screen with 800×480 resolution, two-point touch, without camera, 1080P video decode, Mali400 GPU.

Richard_P
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:25 pm

Piw32 wrote:This is insane, why prices a going so low ?

7 inch tablet for 25€ or $31 : http://micdigi.com/2012/06/the-7-inch-t ... y-199-rmb/
The Amlogic 8726 has some Linux support.
The 7-inch tablet based on Amlogic sells for only 199 RMB.
Configurations: Amlogic 8726 solution, 512M memory, 4G storage, 7-inch resistive screen with 800×480 resolution, two-point touch, without camera, 1080P video decode, Mali400 GPU.
I got quite a few Amlogic based boards for development.... have you seen their CPU data sheets? ... I don't think the manufacturer has. You can have the best CPU in the world, but without the support backing, you are swimming against the current.

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AndrewS
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:18 am

Piw32 wrote:This is insane, why prices a going so low ?
Market saturation?

edyb
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:45 pm

One big thing we all forgot here is this..... It is not about the COST$ of the hardware, it is about the uniform experience, support, user community and consistency you get with Raspberry Pi.

Sure you can go out and buy all sorts of cool stuff from China and pay almost nothing. Sure you can hack and mod and root just about anything out there. That is NOT THE POINT! It is also not the point to have a supercomputer or a media player or a gaming machine.

The Raspberry Pi foundation has managed to create a CHEAP computer, gather a lot of MEDIA attention, and create a COMMUNITY of enthusiastic "Pi-Heads" (ok, I've said it, let it go viral) that are all being given the same common platform to develop on. We are all in this together! All using the same hardware, and sharing the same open-source tools. We can use peripherals all easily found around our homes to plug in and type, and get a full screen experience.

At the end of the day, the RasPi foundation has met it's goal... It has managed to create a "buzz" about programming, seeded the next generation of youth with a device that lends itself to PROGRAMMING and not just playing games and watching videos or hacking. It helps them learn a programming language and understand the basics of computer programming, algorithm design, and so on... and allows some general purpose input/output.

Sure we could all go out and buy cheap Android tablets and hack linux onto them. But how would this meet the objectives above? Would there be a consistent hardware platform, with thousands and eventually millions of users all collaborating? Probably not... we would all be fragmented into our own little worlds.

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AndrewS
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Re: $35 RasPi vs $50 tablet ?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:08 pm

Makes a change to be called a "Pi-Head" rather than a "Pi**-Head" :D (censored for any children reading)

But yeah, a lot of your points (IMHO the community is one of Raspi's biggest strengths) have also been made in this thread http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... =63&t=6068

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