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emercer
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:10 am

[quote]Quoted from Rhombus-Tech\'s website
A discussion took place today with the factory regarding PCB layout. Of paramount importance to them is to ensure that the resultant PCB will be useful for a number of mass-volume purposes. The unspoken implication is that if that same PCB happens to be EOMA-PCMCIA-compliant, they would not mind designing it to suit RHT\'s goals, even though those goals would also benefit the Factory as well![/quote]

[quote]Quoted from Rhombus-Tech\'s website
Regarding pricing: the hardware NREs from the factory are $USD 2,000. Therefore, based on the number of committments so far (23 as of 2011Dec12), pricing looks set to be around $100. By the time the number of preorders reaches 30, that will be around $75 (30 reached as of 2011Dec17).

The mass-volume (100k units) price will be somewhere around $15: the more committments received, the closer the price will get to that. One expression of interest has been received for 1,000 (stable) units: a pricing evaluation request is outstanding with the factory and will be reported as soon as it is received.[/quote]

So the guys at Allwinner Tech aren\'t doing it for the kindness of their hearts, instead they are hoping to take advantage of the idea as a new reference design they can market, hence the incredibly low non-recurring engineering quote of 20 Benjamins and 1,5 mil for 100k units.

I for one would like to put my dirty little mittens on one of those at least as much as on the RasPi.

sylvan
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:38 am

[quote]Quote from emercer on December 18, 2011, 04:10
I for one would like to put my dirty little mittens on one of those at least as much as on the RasPi.[/quote]

No doubt.

I do wonder how much it will cost for the breakout board (with the socket for the card and connectors for power, USB, LAN, ...).

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:56 am

[quote]Quote from sylvan on December 18, 2011, 04:38
I do wonder how much it will cost for the breakout board (with the socket for the card and connectors for power, USB, LAN, ...).
[/quote]

I\'m not waiting on one, I\'ll just rig my own breadboarded connectors >D

sylvan
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:10 am

[quote]Quote from emercer on December 18, 2011, 05:56
[quote]Quote from sylvan on December 18, 2011, 04:38
I do wonder how much it will cost for the breakout board (with the socket for the card and connectors for power, USB, LAN, ...).
[/quote]

I\'m not waiting on one, I\'ll just rig my own breadboarded connectors >D[/quote]

I\'ve never found a good way to connect to a PCMCIA card. The connectors are too fine for me to solder wire to, and sticking wires into the card has never worked well. I suppose if there was a PCMCIA connector breakout I\'d be good to go...

tntexplosivesltd
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:11 am

I don\'t think it has a PCMCIA connecor, it\'s jst PCMCIA-sized.

jamesh
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:51 am

[quote]Quote from emercer on December 18, 2011, 04:10
[quote]Quoted from Rhombus-Tech\'s website
A discussion took place today with the factory regarding PCB layout. Of paramount importance to them is to ensure that the resultant PCB will be useful for a number of mass-volume purposes. The unspoken implication is that if that same PCB happens to be EOMA-PCMCIA-compliant, they would not mind designing it to suit RHT\'s goals, even though those goals would also benefit the Factory as well![/quote]

[quote]Quoted from Rhombus-Tech\'s website
Regarding pricing: the hardware NREs from the factory are $USD 2,000. Therefore, based on the number of committments so far (23 as of 2011Dec12), pricing looks set to be around $100. By the time the number of preorders reaches 30, that will be around $75 (30 reached as of 2011Dec17).

The mass-volume (100k units) price will be somewhere around $15: the more committments received, the closer the price will get to that. One expression of interest has been received for 1,000 (stable) units: a pricing evaluation request is outstanding with the factory and will be reported as soon as it is received.[/quote]

So the guys at Allwinner Tech aren\'t doing it for the kindness of their hearts, instead they are hoping to take advantage of the idea as a new reference design they can market, hence the incredibly low non-recurring engineering quote of 20 Benjamins and 1,5 mil for 100k units.
[/quote]

Nobody like Rhombus does it out of the kindness of their hearts - there is a profit motive somewhere, and that sounds like a good one.

Some of those figures look they will probably increase. They always do! $2000 is nothing to design and debug a board like this, and 1.5M for 100k? Very very low indeed.
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hajj_3
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:03 am

if they can make this for $40 i\'d buy one.

Fast cpu, sata 2, nice amount of ram and nand flash storage would be great.

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Burngate
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:27 am

This site appears to be the work of a couple of guys in a garage (but look what happened to Microsoft)
They\'ve seen the Pi, and thought \"We could do that\". And maybe they can, we\'ll have to wait and see.

Given the time it\'s taken to bring our Pi to market, and the speed at which technology moves, it\'s not surprising that, starting out now, they\'re aiming to use a chip with better specs. Though when (in year?) it does come to market, there\'ll probably be other competitors out on the web promising even more!

Up till now, the computer paradigm has been a large, expensive box doing everything, and aimed at everyone, but too valuable to risk breaking.

The Pi is a cheap box that doesn\'t do everything, but will do most things not too badly, ands if it breaks it\'s not the end of the world. It\'s aimed at the education sector, although it is also usefull for us geeks, and could find a use in commercial products.

The Rhombus-Tech board is aimed at a slightly different market. However they also see it in our (geek and education) sectors. Also their business model is different. But it\'s interesting that they\'re following the Pi philosophy of trying to be as open as possible about their progress!

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:30 pm

I\'m quite surprised that someone thought \"we could do that, better and cheaper\" which appears to be the aim. The Raspi is cut down to the bone, pricewise, in the market, at the moment. Not sure how people thought they could do better against a charity with no profit motive. Yes, there will be better chips out for the same price in a years time. Not now. Remember that the BRCM2825 is well over a year old now, so its not leading edge tech, and the price reflects that, and also that the cost of the SoC is not the majority cost of the board.....
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:10 pm

[quote]Quote from tntexplosivesltd on December 18, 2011, 08:11
I don\'t think it has a PCMCIA connecor, it\'s jst PCMCIA-sized.[/quote]

Have a look at the FAQ page (linked to from the middle of the Rhombus main page), they\'re clearly thinking about using PCMCIA.

http://rhombus-tech.net/faq/

see also

http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular ... ion_1.0.29

Its clear the intention is for a \"future proof\" intelligence module for consumer electronics. Referencing Raspberry Pi is just an attention grabbing, \"look, we\'re faster and have more RAM\" ploy. They\'re just talking up a storm and piggybacking on some Chinese proposals for a modular PC board.

Good luck to \'em, but I\'m not holding my breath. Remember the problems with the Globescale Guruplug systems? Sold on pre-order (it took 6-7 months to deliver from first orders taken). Hurried into production. Under developed. Prone to overheating and PSU failure when used in the real world. I think they\'ve been withdrawn after about a year on sale (the UK distributor isn\'t listing them any more).

Unless Rhombus\'s Chinese partners are going to do a lot of the design heavy lifting, I don\'t see any progress with this particular proposal for at least a year (being charitable). Its good to have a diversity of approaches to the problem that the Raspberry Pi is trying to solve, I just don\'t think that this example is going to help.
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

Johannes
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:03 pm

Regarding \"components per dollar\" and design costs, I\'d like to offer a reality check and point out that $50 buys one of these, retail, including shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-G41M-VS3-C ... B002YVBEYE

My Android smartphone with capacitive touchscreen, Wifi, 3G, quadband GSM, Bluetooth, GPS, compass, accelerometer, camera, battery and charger costs about twice the expected price of the Raspberry Pi Model B, no strings attached.

I don\'t think they make either of those in batches of 10000 though.

Now I have no idea if the Rhombus Tech guys are for real, have what it takes to pull it off, etc., but I don\'t think you can say \"it can\'t be done\" about their concept anymore than you could say the same about the Raspberry Pi.

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:36 pm

[quote]Quote from Johannes on December 18, 2011, 14:03
My Android smartphone with capacitive touchscreen, Wifi, 3G, quadband GSM, Bluetooth, GPS, compass, accelerometer, camera, battery and charger costs about twice the expected price of the Raspberry Pi Model B, no strings attached.[/quote]Can you post a link please, I\'ve just paid GBP150 for one for my wife\'s Xmas present, but there\'s still time to send it back. Fifty quid sounds much more palatable bearing in mind that all she has got me is a gravy seperator. Ta!

hajj_3
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:12 pm

scep, try looking at the orange san francisco, alot cheaper and is pretty good.

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:46 pm

Hi James,

[quote]I\'m quite surprised that someone thought \"we could do that, better and cheaper\" which appears to be the aim. The Raspi is cut down to the bone, pricewise, in the market, at the moment.[/quote]

The Raspi could be made cheaper IF it was manufactured in China in larger volumes. Really, 10k units is small, so you\'re not going to get as good a price for components and PCB as if you were making 100k or 1M units. And manufacturing in the UK is more expensive than China. BUT... then you need to come up with 10x or 100x the initial cash outlay.

So yes, Iomega can make net devices for less, with cases, PSUs and boxes. But they will be making them in the 100k or larger batches, with thinner PCBs and smaller passive components, and manufactured in China. If you have a couple of $M going spare you could also achieve those kinds of prices!!

For what it is, for where it is made, and for its ethics, I think the Raspi is a clear winner.

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm

[quote]Quote from tntexplosivesltd on December 18, 2011, 08:11
I don\'t think it has a PCMCIA connecor, it\'s jst PCMCIA-sized.[/quote]

If it is to be EOMA-PCMCIA compliant, it has to have the 68-pin connector.

http://www.elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Mod ... ure/PCMCIA

obarthelemy
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:14 pm

@emercer: hey, great to see you. It does have the 68-pin connector, but it\'s not PCMCIA-compliant in the sense that they\'re using it as a system bus, not a PC expansion card. The connector carries Sata, USB, Video... so you need a specific host board to stick that into.

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:27 pm

[quote]Quote from Neil on December 18, 2011, 17:46
Hi James,

[quote]I\'m quite surprised that someone thought \"we could do that, better and cheaper\" which appears to be the aim. The Raspi is cut down to the bone, pricewise, in the market, at the moment.[/quote]

The Raspi could be made cheaper IF it was manufactured in China in larger volumes. Really, 10k units is small, so you\'re not going to get as good a price for components and PCB as if you were making 100k or 1M units. And manufacturing in the UK is more expensive than China. BUT... then you need to come up with 10x or 100x the initial cash outlay.

So yes, Iomega can make net devices for less, with cases, PSUs and boxes. But they will be making them in the 100k or larger batches, with thinner PCBs and smaller passive components, and manufactured in China. If you have a couple of $M going spare you could also achieve those kinds of prices!!

For what it is, for where it is made, and for its ethics, I think the Raspi is a clear winner.
[/quote]

Very true, but I wouldn\'t want to be the one coughing all that dosh in the hope they all sell......!!
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lucacuchi
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:44 pm

i will buy it, if it comes out. i will also buy the raspberry pi.

sylvan
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:26 pm

[quote]Quote from jamesh on December 18, 2011, 19:27
Very true, but I wouldn\'t want to be the one coughing all that dosh in the hope they all sell......!!
[/quote]

Which brings us full-circle right back to why they are taking pre-manufacture commitments...

The next message will be about fraud. (which is why I\'m not committing until I see product)

etc.

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scep
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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:06 pm

Thanks for the phone info guys, though I think that I\'ll stick with the Acer Liquid Metal and demand a new kneading hook for my KitchenAid in return...

My point is: it\'s a non-sequitur to say [insert random electronic item here ] only costs so much; or [insert unheard of company here] are going to make a bigger/better/cheaper PC than the Pi; or [insert established company here] already sell a bigger/better/cheaper PC than the Pi etc etc etc. I don\'t want a motherboard or an MP3 player or a remote nose hair trimmer. I want a low cost, nano factor, capable PC for $25. And in a few weeks\' time I will be able to buy one.

If anyone can do better then I\'ll buy it. When it\'s out.

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:07 pm

You need to consider the different definitions of \"possible\".

The components of the RasPi were, if I understand correctly, available 2-3 years ago, so in some sense, it was possible then. I\'m not sure of the price point then, or if all important support elements from the Open Source community were available, but looking at just the hardware, using cheapest manufacturing, larger volume economies of scale, designers, etc. RasPi \"could have been done\" a couple of years ago. So why would it be surprising that (misusing the Moore\'s Law, as per standard Internet practice) that a the more powerful board board \"could be done\" using a more capable, newly available SoC in the near future -- at least 2-3 Moore doubling generations later. It would rather be surprising if it couldn\'t.

The amazing thing, for which we all tip our hats, is that Raspi WAS done, with a model that made excellent use of the resources available to it, a user/learning friendly design philosophy, and hardware choices tailored to that goal. Most pastry kitchens have the parts/facilities to turn out world-class cutting edge cakes at standard wedding prices. Some try. Few succeed.

RasPi is a triumph of sheer will, personal sacrifice, talent, practical machinations, and maybe a few (un)lucky breaks, NOT some scientific/engineering breakthrough

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Re: if its good copy it?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:10 pm

[quote]Quote from Orpheus on December 18, 2011, 21:07
RasPi is a triumph of sheer will, personal sacrifice, talent, practical machinations, and maybe a few (un)lucky breaks, NOT some scientific/engineering breakthrough[/quote]Well said. Very well said indeed.

Piw32
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Re: if its good copy it?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:35 am

Preorders are piling up : http://rhombus-tech.net/recentchanges/

hajj_3
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Re: if its good copy it?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:22 am

Here is the FULL specs and block diagram for the Cortex A8 Allwinner A10 chip: http://www.allwinnertech.com/product/a1x.html

jamesh
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Re: if its good copy it?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:00 pm

It\'s basically a more modern version of the Raspi processor, I\'d say about 2 years younger. Encode/decode is about the same but I cannot tell what the 3D performance is like, and it obviously has more interfacing options. I\'d be a bit dubious about their power consumption claims being better than the competitors. Still, not bad at all. I\'d be interested in what the final boards come out like (and when).
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