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Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:48 pm
by Vontux
Am I understanding correctly that the $10.00 Pi Zero W isn't displacing the non-wireless version of the Pi Zero that will still be sold at $5.00?

Re: PI Zero W - why no info on this site?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:48 pm
by KevinA
fanoush wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote: Also better value than C.H.I.P., yet again the imitators have been matched or bettered.
It depends. C.H.I.P. has li-po charger, analog audio, builtin flash memory and is ARMv7. It has no hdmi or sd card, though. If tv-out is not enough, one can add analog vga or lcd easily and SD card can be added too via gpio. so both are similar. I got two C.H.I.P.s and they are neat too, just like the Pi.
We moved to the NanoPi NEOs - Quad CPU, 1.2Ghz, Tbase100, USB, OTG, MicroSD. This makes a good headless controller and by adding a SPI display we're good. We can buy quantity numbers without an issue.
Tried CHIP, power issues with most of them; while having a power management IC is wanted on a notebook or tablet adding one to the CHIP just increased it's power consumption.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:56 pm
by W. H. Heydt
KevinA wrote: This one at a time policy goes directly against the foundation goals. If you can't produce enough product for demand outsource it to someone that can and quit making diamonds.
It's a serious problem with no clear solution, at least in the short run. If your school is allowed to buy 100 Pi Zero W boards at a time, that's 99 other people that have to wait, some of who probably want them for educational purposes as well. The Pi Zero (and probably the Pi Zero W) suffers from the problem of extreme popularity coupled with limited manufacturing capacity. I've been maintaining for some time that Sony needs to set up a second production line for Pis at Pencoed, but doing it solely to make any variant of Pi Zero is probably a horribly uneconomic reason to do so. Growth in demand of the Pi3B, and possibly to produce the Pi3A could do it. The CM3/CM3L won't hurt, either. If they make the CM3-16 for NEC, that might make it possible, since that board won't have RPF-type price constraints.

In the medium term, if the right feature set is included (i.e. WiFi/BT), the Pi3A might be a viable option for you. On the assumption that the Pi3A will be $20, you should be able to make a bulk order of Pi3As when they become available for a single shipping charge, and there may well be bulk or educational discounts, driving the cost of that approach below that of the total cost of buying individual Pi Zero W boards.

In the mean time, I suppose the relevant question is: What do you want to use the Pi Zero W for that some other Pi isn't suitable for? Or are you looking at price and nothing else?

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:19 pm
by Heater
KevinA,
This one at a time policy goes directly against the foundation goals.
By what weird logic do you arrive at that conclusion?

The Pi Foundation has done an amazing job of providing cheap compute power and educational materials for five years now. When the first Pi was launched similar machines we were using cost over 200 dollars. And you want to complain that you cannot get more stuff more cheap!
With other vendors we can purchase quantity 100 at a time at a discount for the school and pay one shipping fee.
That is very good. Just do so.

By the way, what vendors and what machines exactly?

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:50 pm
by rurwin
Heater wrote:By the way, what vendors and what machines exactly?
He already answered that:
KevinA wrote:We moved to the NanoPi NEOs - Quad CPU, 1.2Ghz, Tbase100, USB, OTG, MicroSD. This makes a good headless controller and by adding a SPI display we're good. We can buy quantity numbers without an issue.
Production of the Zero W is much higher than production of the Zero, and the number of distributors is higher too. The aim is that it will be available in higher numbers per order. However nobody could ever promise that it will happen; the level of demand is unknowable. I imagine the RPF have done the maths based off the demand for the Zero, but the Zero W has capabilities the Zero doesn't. They probably factored in some accounting for that, but they can't know in advance what the effect will be.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:55 pm
by Heater
Ah, The Friendly Arm. Sounds great.

Re: PI Zero W - why no info on this site?

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:02 am
by geoffr
hippy wrote:
wildfire wrote:A zero with WiFi, c'mon you guys are taking the mick (is it April 1st?)
It makes a lot of sense; add '$1 of WiFi/BT and jack the price up by $5'. Whatever the actual cost and profit, let's hope it's enough to make the Zero W manufacturable in quantity.

Looking forward to the W+ which has an antenna connector fitted.
The big cost increase with adding wireless is that of achieving regulatory compliance. Having already done that for the Pi3 is probably a big help.
I would expect however that getting regulatory approval still accounts for a fair amount of cost.

An additional $5 for WiFi is still great value - All my Pi Zeros have WiFi USB dongles. The cost of adding WiFi using a USB adaptor is usually more than $5. - Nevermind WiFi plus Bluetooth, and you still have your USB port free....

Re: PI Zero W - why no info on this site?

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:20 am
by underwhelmd
geoffr wrote:
An additional $5 for WiFi is still great value - All my Pi Zeros have WiFi USB dongles. The cost of adding WiFi using a USB adaptor is usually more than $5. - Nevermind WiFi plus Bluetooth, and you still have your USB port free....

Exactly. It's an excellent value and time saver.

Re: PI Zero W - why no info on this site?

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:10 am
by CarlRJ
underwhelmd wrote:
geoffr wrote:All my Pi Zeros have WiFi USB dongles. The cost of adding WiFi using a USB adaptor is usually more than $5. - Nevermind WiFi plus Bluetooth, and you still have your USB port free....
Exactly. It's an excellent value and time saver.
To me the value bit is just the cherry on top - having WiFi without losing the USB port, and keeping the form factor small is the huge win, even if it were more expensive. If you're trying to fit the unit somewhere small (comparing PiZero + WiFi adaptor vs. PiZeroW), not having the previously necessary dongle sticking out the side is a huge win.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:25 am
by barton
The backlash is unbelievable and pathetic. I started with a ZX81 because the ZX80 was obsolete/unavailable by the time I could afford one :). The Not-for-profit Raspberry Pi foundation comes out with a better version of the zero for a nominal increase, and people whine. I think a lot of folks are improperly using Pi's for commercial purposes and should either get jobs with viable companies or learn how to design similar systems on their own.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:21 am
by DougieLawson
barton wrote: I think a lot of folks are improperly using Pi's for commercial purposes and should either get jobs with viable companies or learn how to design similar systems on their own.
The commercial folks are the target market for CM, CM3 and CM3L, they don't need to design their own SoC.

The cheap Zero works perfectly in some commercial kit like the WD PiDrive (I'm tempted to swap my PiZ+ in my PiDrive out for a PiZW).

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:33 am
by startrek.steve
DougieLawson wrote:
barton wrote: The cheap Zero works perfectly in some commercial kit like the WD PiDrive (I'm tempted to swap my PiZ+ in my PiDrive out for a PiZW).
What do you use your Pidrive+Zero for Dougie?
Been fancying one of those for a while.

Steve

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:48 am
by jamesh
KevinA wrote:Found one! PiHut from the UK to the US is more cost effective than the US suppliers: one out, another at $10 shipping the third is in store pickup only.
Still the same problem as the PI Zero:
Buy one at a time:
Every student goes on line and pay shipping driving the cost of ownership to double the cost if group ordered. With other vendors we can purchase quantity 100 at a time at a discount for the school and pay one shipping fee.

This one at a time policy goes directly against the foundation goals. If you can't produce enough product for demand outsource it to someone that can and quit making diamonds.
The last line of this post shows a severe misunderstanding of commerce.

The profit margin on the Zero is tiny, and it is not cost effective to make it in large numbers, even to the point of large orders still not being cost effective. No amount of production capacity will change that. Only increasing the price. So what happens if you increase the price to something that makes it really cost effective for the RPF and the distributors?

You get the Model A.

Which is available in whatever quantities you want.

(But, for schools the Model B is clearly the best option. All the features, $35. Which is a BARGAIN for what you get. Also available in huge quantities.)

I wish people would think more before making claims like this.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:52 am
by DougieLawson
startrek.steve wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:
barton wrote: The cheap Zero works perfectly in some commercial kit like the WD PiDrive (I'm tempted to swap my PiZ+ in my PiDrive out for a PiZW).
What do you use your Pidrive+Zero for Dougie?
Been fancying one of those for a while.

Steve
It's mostly got GoPro photos and skiing videos on it at the moment.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:55 am
by mattmiller
The last line of this post shows a severe misunderstanding of commerce.
A lot of us think the RPi don't have a full grasp of it either :)

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:07 am
by Heater
A lot of you think wrongly :)

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:13 am
by fruitoftheloom
mattmiller wrote:
The last line of this post shows a severe misunderstanding of commerce.
A lot of us think the RPi don't have a full grasp of it either :)
Typical response, if you can do better then manufacture / sell your own SBC..

in actual fact if you feel that way do not buy a RPT products, there are plenty of alternative SBC's.......

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:14 am
by jamesh
mattmiller wrote:
The last line of this post shows a severe misunderstanding of commerce.
A lot of us think the RPi don't have a full grasp of it either :)
12 Million sold.

Yeah, right.

Because people without a grasp of commerce never become the largest UK computer maker ever. Must all be pure luck then.

Since 'most people' have no knowledge of the RPF's internals, it does seem ambitious to make claims based on no evidence whatsoever.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:19 am
by mattmiller
Lets compromise then

Since no other $5/$10 product in the entire world is not produced in the numbers that the market requires - lets say that RPi has a unique perspective on commerce :)

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:02 am
by MarkyV
From my understanding from talking to the tech guys at the foundation Pi Zero is not a profit making product - the reason they are in short supply is because they have to stop one of their 3 machines making profitable products (Pi3b) to make a run of Pi Zero (or W) - zero is provided at this price to enable schools etc to be able to afford a classfull of devices on their budget.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:08 am
by fruitoftheloom
MarkyV wrote:From my understanding from talking to the tech guys at the foundation Pi Zero is not a profit making product - the reason they are in short supply is because they have to stop one of their 3 machines making profitable products (Pi3b) to make a run of Pi Zero (or W) - zero is provided at this price to enable schools etc to be able to afford a classfull of devices on their budget.
RPT (not RPF) are addressing the situation by having the BCM2837 3B (maybe the 2B v1.2 as well) manufactured by Sony Japan, therefore leaving more capacity at Sony Pencoed Wales ;)

http://elinux.org/RPi_HardwareHistory

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:11 am
by frassepe
Will the Zero W do USB boot like the 3B?

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:16 am
by rpdom
frassepe wrote:Will the Zero W do USB boot like the 3B?
No.

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:19 am
by tweak42
I'm curious, there's what appears to be pads to solder on a uFL connector for an external antenna. Does anyone know any information about this feature?

Re: PI Zero W info

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:25 am
by fruitoftheloom
tweak42 wrote:I'm curious, there's what appears to be pads to solder on a uFL connector for an external antenna. Does anyone know any information about this feature?
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