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RaTTuS
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:15 am

well Dual Gig Ethernet would be much nicer [or even dual 100Mbps]
the ability to address more than 1GB of RAM
and an e-pony , but what you have to do is make a new SOC - which is not just a copy paste of the Video care + ARMs+ interfaces on the SOC ...
but as broadcom made nice gig ethernet switches I dont see why they could not just have a
5 port Gig switch [make it 4] add a quad core ARM + video core all on one the same silicon ... oh yeah it's not that easy ...
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:07 am

Yes but it isn't just RPF, there is RPT too and Farnell/RS etc customisation.
NEC is a prime example of that part of RPT, things have changed, 'demands' from companies now come into play and no doubt will help dictate what is needed/wanted/implemented, if they need USB3, Gigabit, etc then it becomes more viable and '3Million' becomes less of a problem, RPF then can benefits from that RPT business.

It's more than just education now for RaspberryPi.

(And I'm an education user)
Last edited by bensimmo on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pithagoros
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:23 am

Perhaps £3m is not justified to meet the educational requirement now, but I don't think now is where planning is given the lag involved between decision and realisation.

So SBC alternatives have had moderate success but none have really troubled the PI so far even when they have offered the better specification. But if one of them was to catch on because it offered uncontended IO, higher RAM options, and practical 64bit as well as a well supported open accelerated graphics capability and generated a cohesive enthusiast community then it would leech revenue away from PI, which would leave less money for education project and less money for further development and then it gets harder and harder to catch up.

I think the £3 million mentioned is just an arbitrary number, but in terms of electronic product development over, say, 4 years it is peanuts.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:16 pm

bensimmo wrote: NEC is a prime example of that part of RPT, things have changed, 'demands' from companies now come into play and no doubt will help dictate what is needed/wanted/implemented, if they need USB3, Gigabit, etc then it becomes more viable and '3Million' becomes less of a problem, RPF then can benefits from that RPT business.
That's a project that's being funded by NEC. They're using the RPF compute module because it's a good solid work horse. It has nothing to do with the RPF's educational mission.

Perhaps the folks who need Gigabit ethernet should find an external company that's willing to fund the development costs and work with the RPF/RPT to get the changes into the next Raspberry. My network still runs at 100 and 2.4GHz 802.11bg - I have zero desire to pay more for my next Raspberry for something I really don't need.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:32 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
bensimmo wrote: NEC is a prime example of that part of RPT, things have changed, 'demands' from companies now come into play and no doubt will help dictate what is needed/wanted/implemented, if they need USB3, Gigabit, etc then it becomes more viable and '3Million' becomes less of a problem, RPF then can benefits from that RPT business.
That's a project that's being funded by NEC. They're using the RPF compute module because it's a good solid work horse. It has nothing to do with the RPF's educational mission.

Perhaps the folks who need Gigabit ethernet should find an external company that's willing to fund the development costs and work with the RPF/RPT to get the changes into the next Raspberry. My network still runs at 100 and 2.4GHz 802.11bg - I have zero desire to pay more for my next Raspberry for something I really don't need.
Whatever happens to Pi's in the future, I suspect the price point will remain inviolate.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:13 pm

One way to test if there really is a desire for Gigabit Ethernet or other upgrades could be to run something like a kickstarter campaign where all the money is ploughed into the design and adding those features.

If people want it they can prove it by pledging !

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:58 pm

Forrrge wrote:One way to test if there really is a desire for Gigabit Ethernet or other upgrades could be to run something like a kickstarter campaign where all the money is ploughed into the design and adding those features.

If people want it they can prove it by pledging !
What about backward compatibility ??

How would that fit with the remit of the RPF as a Charity ??

Another half-baked idea from someone who has no idea about designing / manufacturing etcetera...


If I remember correctly a Kickstarter idea was previously discussed and Liz Upton stated not interested, for various reasons.
Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:10 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
bensimmo wrote: NEC is a prime example of that part of RPT, things have changed, 'demands' from companies now come into play and no doubt will help dictate what is needed/wanted/implemented, if they need USB3, Gigabit, etc then it becomes more viable and '3Million' becomes less of a problem, RPF then can benefits from that RPT business.
That's a project that's being funded by NEC. They're using the RPF compute module because it's a good solid work horse. It has nothing to do with the RPF's educational mission.

Perhaps the folks who need Gigabit ethernet should find an external company that's willing to fund the development costs and work with the RPF/RPT to get the changes into the next Raspberry. My network still runs at 100 and 2.4GHz 802.11bg - I have zero desire to pay more for my next Raspberry for something I really don't need.
The meaning was they can sway what is deemed important in the product RPT can sell, as they can then use it.

RPF can then pick up any benefits from that, if it can be used.
The Pi3 does everything we need for STEM in eduction at the moment, we can use PC or tablet for anything else (and the microbit in the UK).
Gigabit is not needed, neither is USB3 for us.

RaspberryPi Trading is a Limited company, hence not a charity. Free to sell for profit as it desires.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:28 pm

bensimmo wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:
bensimmo wrote: NEC is a prime example of that part of RPT, things have changed, 'demands' from companies now come into play and no doubt will help dictate what is needed/wanted/implemented, if they need USB3, Gigabit, etc then it becomes more viable and '3Million' becomes less of a problem, RPF then can benefits from that RPT business.
That's a project that's being funded by NEC. They're using the RPF compute module because it's a good solid work horse. It has nothing to do with the RPF's educational mission.

Perhaps the folks who need Gigabit ethernet should find an external company that's willing to fund the development costs and work with the RPF/RPT to get the changes into the next Raspberry. My network still runs at 100 and 2.4GHz 802.11bg - I have zero desire to pay more for my next Raspberry for something I really don't need.
The meaning was they can sway what is deemed important in the product RPT can sell, as they can then use it.

RPF can then pick up any benefits from that, if it can be used.
The Pi3 does everything we need for STEM in eduction at the moment, we can use PC or tablet for anything else (and the microbit in the UK).
Gigabit is not needed, neither is USB3 for us.

RaspberryPi Trading is a Limited company, hence not a charity. Free to sell for profit as it desires.
RPi Trading is a fully owned subsidiary of the charity - their profits go directly to the charity. It does them some autonomy, but not as much as a fully independant company.

Lots of people seem to think the Foundation and their trading subsidiary have not thought of any of this stuff (that goes for all the other threads where people suggest updates). Whereas they have a lot of very intelligent people directing them who are very aware of market demands. Or do people think they just make stuff up as they go along, and it's all been luck so far?
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:51 pm

jamesh wrote:Or do people think they just make stuff up as they go along, and it's all been luck so far?
Yes Eben Upton and all the gang just makes it up as they go along, otherwise these Posts would not exist.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:11 pm

I don't care either way, it's of no benefit to me for anything I do.

I was just pointing out (to others) that when industry get involved they can sway decisions, probably more so then others as they have a known demand and money behind them or even help fund development.
NEC is just a publicised project, no idea how many will actually sell or if it will be a commercial success.

I tread RPT position as the high street Oxfam shop, the shop does what it need to get the money (within the ethos of Oxfam). Oxfam you don't see does all the charity work in the background spreading and using the benefits of the shop do it cause. (RPF).
If Oxfam shop could see that a coffee chain would create profitable income, then they could do it if they see enough commercial demand. Oxfam (bit into he background) then gains the money, spread sit word and maybe even use that coffee shop to gain links with coffee, milk, chocolate people in need. All benefit.

A bit off but hey ho.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:48 pm

You were testing from the same box to the same box? Seriously?

That is only useful for measuring the tcp/ip stack's maximum throughput, as the data never left the Pi.

The Pi is NOT capable of on-the-wire >300Mbps, with a great USB3 GigE adapter you can do maybe 220Mbs.

Your testing is totally flawed. Please google on testing ethernet network speeds, NOT local loopback speeds.

You need to test from computer A to computer B if you want to find out network limits.

Use a very fast Linux computer with a known excellent GigE throughput for the computer to test again.
jahboater wrote: Anyway, iperf gives the expected results:

Code: Select all

~* iperf -c pi
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to pi, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 59580 connected with 192.168.0.80 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   380 MBytes   319 Mbits/sec
~* iperf -c odroid
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to odroid, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 57197 connected with 192.168.0.2 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  1.08 GBytes   925 Mbits/sec
Last edited by mikronauts on Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:51 pm

Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:02 pm

mikronauts wrote:You were testing from the same box to the same box? Seriously?
Why did you think I was doing that ????

In the Pi vs C2 review linked to above:
http://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2016/r ... ge-pi-plus
iperf raw throughput (onboard Gigabit Ethernet): 938 Mbps (321 Mbps on Pi 3)

iperf gave absolutely an absolutely rock solid 938 Mbps, which is awesome—the Orange Pi was a little shaky in its results, varying in test runs from 300-750 Mbps, but never getting near a full 1 Gbps throughput. The Raspberry Pi 3 can get 95 Mbps on the built in 10/100 Ethernet port, or up to 321 Mbps on a Gigabit USB 3.0 adapter.
So someone else has a faster adaptor than you have seen (unless you think he is using the loopback interface as well ... )

The PC running the iperf client is a 4GHz ivybridge (Intel) PC running Linux with a GigE ethernet connection. It is connected to a Netgear GS108 GigE switch. The Odroid C2 is connected to the same switch. The Pi3 is connected via a second GS108 GigE switch which is connected to that same switch (if that makes any sense, I have lots of Pi's).

The Pi3 has a USB 3.0 GigE ethernet adaptor to eth1.
The adaptor is https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

NOWHERE was I using any loopback interface - that would be daft.
In fact there are two switches in between them.
My Pi3 can clearly do 319 Mbits/sec. Its running Raspbian Lite.

Another Pi2 connected to the same switch as the Pi3 but using its on-board ethernet port reports only 95Mbits/sec.

Here it is again, the two Pi's connected to the same switch with the iperf client on the same intel PC.

Code: Select all

~* iperf -c pi2
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to pi2, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 41984 connected with 192.168.0.10 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   114 MBytes  95.3 Mbits/sec
~* iperf -c pi 
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to pi, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 52556 connected with 192.168.0.80 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   380 MBytes   318 Mbits/sec
~* 
On each of the Pi's I just did "iperf -s", nothing clever.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:38 pm

My bad.

I did not read the ip addresses correctly, and I'll have to get the adapter he is using - best I've managed so far has been ~220Mbps on a Pi3, so it looks like I have more headroom to explore.

Frankly, I suspect it is the >300Mbps result that threw me, and made me mis-read the ip's... it is seriously far better than any result I've gotten so far, and I've tried several USB3 gigE's.

jahboater wrote:
mikronauts wrote:You were testing from the same box to the same box? Seriously?
Why did you think I was doing that ????

In the Pi vs C2 review linked to above:
http://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2016/r ... ge-pi-plus
iperf raw throughput (onboard Gigabit Ethernet): 938 Mbps (321 Mbps on Pi 3)

iperf gave absolutely an absolutely rock solid 938 Mbps, which is awesome—the Orange Pi was a little shaky in its results, varying in test runs from 300-750 Mbps, but never getting near a full 1 Gbps throughput. The Raspberry Pi 3 can get 95 Mbps on the built in 10/100 Ethernet port, or up to 321 Mbps on a Gigabit USB 3.0 adapter.
So someone else has a faster adaptor than you have seen (unless you think he is using the loopback interface as well ... )

The PC running the iperf client is a 4GHz ivybridge (Intel) PC running Linux with a GigE ethernet connection. It is connected to a Netgear GS108 GigE switch. The Odroid C2 is connected to the same switch. The Pi3 is connected via a second GS108 GigE switch which is connected to that same switch (if that makes any sense, I have lots of Pi's).

The Pi3 has a USB 3.0 GigE ethernet adaptor to eth1.
The adaptor is https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

NOWHERE was I using any loopback interface - that would be daft.
In fact there are two switches in between them.
My Pi3 can clearly do 319 Mbits/sec. Its running Raspbian Lite.

Another Pi2 connected to the same switch as the Pi3 but using its on-board ethernet port reports only 95Mbits/sec.

Here it is again, the two Pi's connected to the same switch with the iperf client on the same intel PC.

Code: Select all

~* iperf -c pi2
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to pi2, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 41984 connected with 192.168.0.10 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   114 MBytes  95.3 Mbits/sec
~* iperf -c pi 
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to pi, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 192.168.0.6 port 52556 connected with 192.168.0.80 port 5001
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   380 MBytes   318 Mbits/sec
~* 
On each of the Pi's I just did "iperf -s", nothing clever.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:30 am

jamesh wrote: Whatever happens to Pi's in the future, I suspect the price point will remain inviolate.
This is a very important point. It is the price point of the RPi which has driven its success, and which makes it possible to use a Pi for so many things. Going back to its main goal - education - price is key here. Firstly to be affordable in education and secondly to be cheap enough to to have to be scared of breaking one in an experiment. - In most cases, schools can afford commercial products for their IT needs, where the Pi is key is in having a platform that is cheap enough that every child can have one (or two or three or four ....)

I think that there are so many uses of a Pi where the low price plays a role that it would be dangerous to add functionality which pushes the cost up.

Price point is also key in driving the critical mass of the community. This is also important in furthering educational goals.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:27 am

jamesh wrote:I still have a 100T network at home. Seems to work fine.
I've worked for / in some of the biggest companies in the UK, and none of them had more than 100Mb/s to the desktop (and some of them only 10Mb/s). My current setup is two 10Mb/s VPNs (one to my employer and the other to the customer) and I don't find the lack of bandwidth a problem.

To the OP et al about real world uses :-
I doubt many schools (or many companies) would be able to deliver 1Gb/s to the desktop (the link speed may suggest it, but the throughput will be no where near) as the cost of a capable backbone infrastructure would be prohibitive.

Also many industry devices have fibre connevtivity, so when's the GBIC available?

From tests that I've done and seen elsewhere, the maximum transfer speed of the SD card is ~25MB/s. Transfer speeds of around 300Mb/s can be obtained with a USB3 1Gb/s dongle (operating at USB2 speed and allowing for packet overhead), so a gigabit port would be overkill.

TL;DR - you can max out your Pi by adding a USB3 1Gb/s dongle - which is what I've done to my iSCSI boot Pi and it's quite performant.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:34 am

I'm at a school and by next year the network should finally be able to fully run at gigabit speeds to the PC. We're an old school in it wiring and has taken quite some time, I should hope all the new builds have it and a faster backbone to cope with further setups.
WiFi connections will always be a problem though.

It does help as profiles get transferred and video is streamed, not really a overall problem at the PC but saves a few seconds of your life.
It doesn't stop the bottle neck of printer jamming or the time it takes to type at the keyboard or in any way the pupils.

The limiting connection will probably always be the Internet connection given most thing are on the 'cloud' and little is kept inhouse.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:15 am

bensimmo wrote:I'm at a school and by next year the network should finally be able to fully run at gigabit speeds to the PC. We're an old school in it wiring and has taken quite some time, I should hope all the new builds have it and a faster backbone to cope with further setups.
WiFi connections will always be a problem though.

It does help as profiles get transferred and video is streamed, not really a overall problem at the PC but saves a few seconds of your life.
It doesn't stop the bottle neck of printer jamming or the time it takes to type at the keyboard or in any way the pupils.

The limiting connection will probably always be the Internet connection given most thing are on the 'cloud' and little is kept inhouse.
New builds will have it, but as a governor of a existing small school - gig ethernet would be overkill and funding would not be available anyway. There are a lot of schools in the UK, and given the governments ridiculous and continual cutting back of funding (unless you go Academy) any spending like that is going to have trouble getting funded.
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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:49 am

jamesh wrote:
bensimmo wrote:I'm at a school and by next year the network should finally be able to fully run at gigabit speeds to the PC. We're an old school in it wiring and has taken quite some time, I should hope all the new builds have it and a faster backbone to cope with further setups.
WiFi connections will always be a problem though.

It does help as profiles get transferred and video is streamed, not really a overall problem at the PC but saves a few seconds of your life.
It doesn't stop the bottle neck of printer jamming or the time it takes to type at the keyboard or in any way the pupils.

The limiting connection will probably always be the Internet connection given most thing are on the 'cloud' and little is kept inhouse.
New builds will have it, but as a governor of a existing small school - gig Ethernet would be overkill and funding would not be available anyway. There are a lot of schools in the UK, and given the governments ridiculous and continual cutting back of funding (unless you go Academy) any spending like that is going to have trouble getting funded.
Oh I know, chances of the older Primary schools aka my kids primary around here having it, other than in a computer room from a small computer server is unlikely. It's not worth the outlay. Though 'Digital Britain' should be pushing funding out really.

Lucky for the one I work in (3-18), the money has been spent upgrading the fibre and building a Wifi spread since it's all moving/moved to cloud based storage for the group. The demands will only get higher, there is little money and a teacher is often a better buy then a half a minute on a file transfer or a slightly faster webpage. But then very little can be done across the network between devices, school security is put higher than usability.

As for my home (probably quite a standard consumer setup) the ISP provided WiFi ADSL Router is 100M, the WiFi is 'n', the Powerlines are 600's and it all works fine enough for everyone.

At no point in this setup is Gigabit Ethernet needed, but really if Broadcom/foundation does put Gigabit onto the Pi/SoC, at least go fibre capable and use a compact connector rather than old wire stuff and it's oversized connector and bundle a convertor, look to the future... ;-) :twisted: .
To be honest the more immediate improvement for our school would be an inbuilt PoE capable Pi. It would save on the cost of adaptor (PoE or USB) and extra cables to lug around.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:40 pm

bensimmo wrote: At no point in this setup is Gigabit Ethernet needed, but really if Broadcom/foundation does put Gigabit onto the Pi/SoC, at least go fibre capable and use a compact connector rather than old wire stuff and it's oversized connector and bundle a convertor, look to the future... ;-) :twisted: .
As a practical matter, reuse of legacy supplies is likely to be a part of the Pi environment pretty much forever. Redeployed, mice, keyboards, and--especially--monitors. Leaping too far ahead to interfaces that most people don't have yet is likely to be (a) expensive, and (b) useless. In support of this thesis, look at all the questions these Forums get about using VGA, a technology which lingers on but was considered old and being phased out when the Pi was first launched.

I think we're going to be seeing RJ-45 jacks on Pis for a long time to come.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:37 pm

I know hence the smilies :-)

Is there a compact spec they can use for the port, it's far too bulky as it is?
They forced the odd miniHDMI (the one neither consumer devices use which are micro and fill size) on us so a small cheap adaptor for Ethernet should be no problem.
To be fair PoE would be most useful if Ethernet was ever implemented on the Zero for remote devices.

No doubt it would be an add-on for USB3 bus anyway, whenever (if) that comes to the processor.

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:02 pm

bensimmo wrote: At no point in this setup is Gigabit Ethernet needed, but really if Broadcom/foundation does put Gigabit onto the Pi/SoC, at least go fibre capable and use a compact connector rather than old wire stuff and it's oversized connector and bundle a convertor, look to the future... ;-) :twisted: .
To be honest the more immediate improvement for our school would be an inbuilt PoE capable Pi. It would save on the cost of adaptor (PoE or USB) and extra cables to lug around.
I'm not sure that a fibre interface makes any sense, they potentially cost a lot more than UTP and don't save any space (and potentially require more if you go for the standard sfp modules), There's also a lot of standards so which do you go with (SX, LX, at least we probably don't need ZX)?

Even for 10GbE it's getting to the point that UTP may make more sense for the average user than fibre (although with 10GbE unless you upgade your wiring to cat6a/cat7 you're limited to something like 30m).

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Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:29 pm

bensimmo wrote:I know hence the smilies :-)

Is there a compact spec they can use for the port, it's far too bulky as it is?
USB-C would probably work, but that has not "matured" into the market yet. It might be a viable choice in 5 years or so.

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Location: San Diego, California

Re: Gigabit Ethernet at this stage?

Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:52 pm

I'd be perfectly happy seeing it go (in the eventual change) to USB3 ports, with the ethernet staying RJ-45 based, and either going to Gig-E or just staying 10/100 (if it helps the Foundation meet their price point) - because, in a future with USB3 on board, those who wanted/needed Gig-E (not everyone does) could plug in a cheap external USB3-to-Gig-E adapter and get the full benefit of the speed, with plenty of bandwidth left over for other USB3 devices (whereas today you can plug in a Gig-E adapter and get some of the speed benefit, but it swamps the USB2 capacity).

An eventual redesign/overhaul of the silicon will likely get us USB3, and more RAM, and higher clock speeds, and perhaps Gig-E (less likely to see SATA, the other one folks love to ask for), because it's best to pump it all up a bit so that next SoC can last a good long time. The Foundation seems pretty pragmatic in their choices. With their quite understandable desire to maintain the low price points, I don't expect to see PCIe, or Fibre, or Thunderbolt, or other more exotic interfaces - sure, they're neat, but they don't serve the overarching goal (inexpensive, for education uses), especially if they make the price go up.

Personally, I'd like to see a (slightly larger and spendier if necessary) Zero with WiFi in addition to (rather than replacing) its single USB port (call it the "Zero Plus" or something and sell it in addition to the Zero) - it'd be even better for IoT use, because it could talk to the network and some plugged-in device. (Also, I want a pink pony. And a unicorn. And an Oompa-Loompa.)

For most use cases for a Pi 3, it's sufficient as is. It can be made to do remarkable things. And there is more capable hardware readily available for the tasks that are (currently) beyond its capabilities.

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