Stanto
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:35 am

Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:49 pm

I've noticed that there is now a version 1.2 of the Raspberry Pi 2 Model B.

Are the changes documented anywhere? Mainly, are there changes to the processor?

I've read on the element14 Community forums that a person has found they need to recompile their custom kernel because of the board change not being compatible.

Thanks,

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10291
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:31 pm

Google must be down today....

The Pi2bv1.2, aka Pi2B2, has a BCM2837 instead of a BCM2836 so it has the SoC of a Pi3B, but underclocked (900MHz) and without the WiFi/BT module of the Pi3B. There are a bunch of threads in this very forum discussing this.

Stanto
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:35 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:08 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Google must be down today....
Google appears to be working. Thank you for your reply, are you aware that how google works, it customises the search results depending on your location, your interests and whether or not you are logged in? The results that are returned can be different for each individual. Search engines are interesting.
The Pi2bv1.2, aka Pi2B2, has a BCM2837 instead of a BCM2836 so it has the SoC of a Pi3B, but underclocked (900MHz) and without the WiFi/BT module of the Pi3B.
That is curious, so this means that the Pi 2 v1.2 still has the hardware serial on the GPIO pins as opposed to the processor dependent serial as the Pi 3 has due to the dedication of the hardware serial to the WiFi/BT module?

Does this also mean that the Raspberry Pi 2 is now a 64bit SoC?
There are a bunch of threads in this very forum discussing this.
It is understandable that people have questions.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:58 pm

Stanto wrote:It is understandable that people have questions.
Of course, but other people have (some of) the answers, and the areas of doubt and uncertainty have been rigidly defined.

If you googled with site:raspberrypi.org added to your search terms, you would have found the discussions and could join one, instead of asking again in a different topic.
Signature retired

User avatar
cisc0box
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:06 pm

I'm pretty sure that's an error ....

Element is listing the RPI2 as having the BCM2837 for their RPi3 comparison but if you look at their datasheets it still has the RPi2 having an Armv7 core.

Pi2 has a Cortex-A7
Pi3 has a Cortex-A53

Can't be the same SoC.
Giving the Pi2 an under clocked A53 makes no sense given they don't share the same hardware and unlocking the CPU frequency can be done in about 10 seconds on a pi.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:41 pm

cisc0box wrote:I'm pretty sure that's an error ....

Element is listing the RPI2 as having the BCM2837 for their RPi3 comparison but if you look at their datasheets it still has the RPi2 having an Armv7 core.

Pi2 has a Cortex-A7
Pi3 has a Cortex-A53

Can't be the same SoC.
Giving the Pi2 an under clocked A53 makes no sense given they don't share the same hardware and unlocking the CPU frequency can be done in about 10 seconds on a pi.
Probably not.

The whole point of the revised Pi2B is to stop using the BCM2386, which is only used in the original Pi2B and therefore only required in small quantities.

Cortex-A53 in 32-bit mode (as used on the Pi3B by the current Raspbian) is nearly compatible with Cortex-A7. The underclocking by default should avoid the widely reported overheating of Pi3Bs, and will deliver something like the Pi2B's existing performance. At a guess it can be overclocked by owners who want maximum performance and can deal with the extra heat.

It is probable that the datasheet still refers to the 1.1 board.
Signature retired

User avatar
cisc0box
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:48 pm

I can't even find any official mention about a revised RPi2 board honestly ....

Does anyone have a picture of a revised RPi2 board?

User avatar
carriba
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:55 pm
Contact: ICQ

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:56 pm

Simply check for the CPU info of the board as outlined in the http://elinux.org/RPi_HardwareHistory site to which extent they match the revisions listed under the original https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/upcomi ... d-revision posting.

User avatar
cisc0box
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:45 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:20 pm

carriba wrote:Simply check for the CPU info of the board as outlined in the http://elinux.org/RPi_HardwareHistory site to which extent they match the revisions listed under the original https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/upcomi ... d-revision posting.

That's the problem. According to the link, the revised 1.2 board is currently being manufactured by Embest (element14). But Embest mentions nothing of a revised RPi2 board with the BCM2837. You would think they would have something in their news feed, data sheets, etc.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10291
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:26 pm

Stanto wrote: Does this also mean that the Raspberry Pi 2 is now a 64bit SoC?
64-bit capable, so far as is known so far, just like the Pi3B (no surprise there, it's the same SoC). Raspbian is being held as a 32-bit OS for backward compatibility reasons, and because--in Dr. Upton's estimation--there is relatively little to be gained by going to 64-bit. With the CM3 in the pipeline (per Dr. Upton, "orders have been placed.") and the planned Pi3A, only the Pi Zero will be unable to run a 64-bit OS. I don't expect a change to the Pi Zero for at least a couple of years, though I can think of a way it could be done--albeit rather unlikely to happen.
It is understandable that people have questions.
Yes...the point being that the existing threads are discoverable.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10291
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:35 pm

cisc0box wrote:I can't even find any official mention about a revised RPi2 board honestly ....

Does anyone have a picture of a revised RPi2 board?
The new board is considered to be a "point release" and no announcement was made. This has led to some confusion and occasional alarm by people caught unprepared and using old system images.

The board should look identical, except for the markings on the SoC. They even kept the status LEDs in the same location, rather than placing them where they are on the Pi3B. The Pi2B2 *should* be a simple "drop-in" replacement for the Pi2B....but only if your bootcode.bin and start*.elf files are reasonably current (that is, post Pi3B release).

gordon77
Posts: 3998
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:17 pm

At cpc it costs more than the pi3 :roll:

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:42 pm

gordon77 wrote:At cpc it costs more than the pi3 :roll:
I ordered some from CPC and got and out of stock notice, back order until 7th November.

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:43 pm

cisc0box wrote:I can't even find any official mention about a revised RPi2 board honestly ....

Does anyone have a picture of a revised RPi2 board?

http://cpc.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi ... EML007-004

User avatar
carriba
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:55 pm
Contact: ICQ

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:40 pm

From an optical standpoint I do not se any difference when looking at the pictures under http://cpc.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi ... EML007-004.

Any high resolution pictures available? ;-)

shuckle
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:49 am
Location: Finland

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:52 pm

Would be nice to know if the new Pi 2 overheats like Pi 3.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:33 pm

carriba wrote:Any high resolution pictures available? ;-)
Mouse over the one you linked. The board revision and the processor number can be read, at least in the second image.
shuckle wrote:Would be nice to know if the new Pi 2 overheats like Pi 3.
I'm sure the first few people to get them will tell us, but I suspect the clock rate set for the Pi2B2 will prevent overheating. Of course, if it's overclocked all bets are off.
Signature retired

Stanto
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:35 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:13 am

I can't even find any official mention about a revised RPi2 board honestly ....
The new board is considered to be a "point release" and no announcement was made. This has led to some confusion and occasional alarm by people caught unprepared and using old system images.
As a product which is embedded into projects globally and a product which is relied upon in a way that people have custom kernels for it, this has been the most surprising, the lack of an update about it.

There are a variety of people whom use a Raspberry Pi with different personal experiences and knowledge, the lack of communication about changes with the fundamental hardware is something which should be addressed.

Needing to know the knowledge of finding a wiki page which isn't necessarily associated with any documentation you receive when you buy the product, and so even after searching on Google, you don't know that it's official in any capacity, requires re-assuring.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:10 pm

Stanto wrote:
Needing to know the knowledge of finding a wiki page which isn't necessarily associated with any documentation you receive when you buy the product, and so even after searching on Google, you don't know that it's official in any capacity, requires re-assuring.
Not at all. Remember the PPF produce products and services to further computer related education. Any commercial use of their products is great, but not their primary aim. Within the primary market, the revised product should "just work". If you want to take the product into a different area, that is at your own risk.

Consider too that the alternative to this revision is probably no Pi2. As a single product it cannot support the volume necessary to manufacture the BCM2386, so it's BCM2387 or bust.
Signature retired

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 22684
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:01 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Stanto wrote:
Needing to know the knowledge of finding a wiki page which isn't necessarily associated with any documentation you receive when you buy the product, and so even after searching on Google, you don't know that it's official in any capacity, requires re-assuring.
Not at all. Remember the PPF produce products and services to further computer related education. Any commercial use of their products is great, but not their primary aim. Within the primary market, the revised product should "just work". If you want to take the product into a different area, that is at your own risk.

Consider too that the alternative to this revision is probably no Pi2. As a single product it cannot support the volume necessary to manufacture the BCM2386, so it's BCM2387 or bust.
Spot on.

Yes, the latest revision of the Pi2 uses the BCM2837. Yes, it is underclocked to keep heat down. Yes, it should be in the main completely compatible with the older version (even a custom kernel should mostly work, there will be outliers). Yes, it's the only option as the 2836 is now too expensive due to low volumes.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
CarlRJ
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:15 pm

Agreed with all that davidcoton and jamesh have said. The raison d'être of the Raspberry Pi is furthering education; its surprising level applicability to other tasks is a happy accident (it's always amusing to see people arguing passionately that the Pi "must" add X or Y to maintain/increase marketshare).

And yet, I think it'd be really cool to see a front-page article on raspberrypi.org about the new version of the Pi2. Give it an unofficial moniker - someone here was fond of "Pi2B2", I think (not stamped on the boxes / boards / literature, just a nod of approval towards some informal name so we all end up calling it the same thing without confusion) - and show it off a bit (tell what was changed and why, maybe throw in some side-by-side pictures). The Foundation made the change out of pragmatic necessity, but information about the whys and whats (and a bit of a "peek behind the scenes") relating to the Pi is more fascinating to some of us than the folks at Pi Towers might imagine. I mean, you don't have to sell us on the new board, it's a done deal, but we are a curious lot. Plus it'd be a useful thing to point folks towards if they express surprise about this change in the future.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10291
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:06 pm

CarlRJ wrote:Agreed with all that davidcoton and jamesh have said. The raison d'être of the Raspberry Pi is furthering education; its surprising level applicability to other tasks is a happy accident (it's always amusing to see people arguing passionately that the Pi "must" add X or Y to maintain/increase marketshare).

And yet, I think it'd be really cool to see a front-page article on raspberrypi.org about the new version of the Pi2. Give it an unofficial moniker - someone here was fond of "Pi2B2", I think (not stamped on the boxes / boards / literature, just a nod of approval towards some informal name so we all end up calling it the same thing without confusion) - and show it off a bit (tell what was changed and why, maybe throw in some side-by-side pictures). The Foundation made the change out of pragmatic necessity, but information about the whys and whats (and a bit of a "peek behind the scenes") relating to the Pi is more fascinating to some of us than the folks at Pi Towers might imagine. I mean, you don't have to sell us on the new board, it's a done deal, but we are a curious lot. Plus it'd be a useful thing to point folks towards if they express surprise about this change in the future.
That would be me. Mostly because "Raspberry Pi 2 Model B, Ver. 1.2" is a bit awkward to type all the time. It's sort of an effort to get a common shorthand for the board, so I'm glad at least one other person is giving it at least passing notice. Long live the Pi2B2.

I am always in favor of "behind the scenes" articles. They help when one has to explain *why* some things are the way they are, even when the real explanation is "because that's the way it happened". (Kind of channeling James Burke's Connections series here....find it and watch it if you aren't familiar with it.)

I also consider the Pi2B2 to be a sharp lesson in why one should at least make a minimal effort to *try* to keep one's software and system configs reasonably current.

Stanto
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:35 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
davidcoton wrote:
Stanto wrote:
Needing to know the knowledge of finding a wiki page which isn't necessarily associated with any documentation you receive when you buy the product, and so even after searching on Google, you don't know that it's official in any capacity, requires re-assuring.
Not at all. Remember the PPF produce products and services to further computer related education. Any commercial use of their products is great, but not their primary aim. Within the primary market, the revised product should "just work". If you want to take the product into a different area, that is at your own risk.

Consider too that the alternative to this revision is probably no Pi2. As a single product it cannot support the volume necessary to manufacture the BCM2386, so it's BCM2387 or bust.
Spot on.

Yes, the latest revision of the Pi2 uses the BCM2837. Yes, it is underclocked to keep heat down. Yes, it should be in the main completely compatible with the older version (even a custom kernel should mostly work, there will be outliers). Yes, it's the only option as the 2836 is now too expensive due to low volumes.
Technically speaking we are now living the alternative that there is no "Pi 2" except in name. What controlled the main identification of its revision appeared to be the processor chip alongside its features, and now what we have , is a "Pi 3 without the WiFi and bluetooth" branded as a "Pi 2". People are finding that it is not a like-for-like drop in replacement, irrespective of whether or not they are using it for commercial purposes, without some prepared action to mitigate that the core integration between the operating system and the device changed. To rationalise for a moment, if we started to manufacture Raspberry Pi 1 B+'s with BCM2837s would it still really be a Pi 1 ? In essence what you've then created is a Pi 2 with a B+ name.

I think it is not necessarily a good idea to readily dismiss commercial use of the Raspberry Pi in such a manner that it shouldn't be addressed for support, by at least communication. Remember that there exists Raspberry Pi Trading (RPT) which is meant for the commercial side?

My understanding of products typically released are that, someone initially has an idea, and that idea is either spurned by market research for what people want, or something which has been identified as a need that doesn't exist and people don't realise they want it. From there, it's acknowledged that people use it for purposes other than intended and there's then a choice to either listen to those people and cater to them as further market research, or to continue to release new ideas which can also be risky. My intended point here is that sustainability is taken from catering and supporting both to some extent, though as you rightly say, a priority can be made to maintain the primary audience if that's enough to sustain.

Thanks for the input on this discussion though, because I think it's been a good conversation.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3780
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:44 pm

Stanto wrote:Remember that there exists Raspberry Pi Trading (RPT) which is meant for the commercial side?
RPT is the commercial side of the Raspberry Pi organisation, doing the work where charitable status is not appropriate. It is not intended to denote support for commercial (rather than educational) users.

Of course all users are welcome, but neither commercial nor (non-educational) individual users will get special consideration unless there is a clear benefit, direct or indirect, to RPF's goals. Note that support (here!) is almost entirely given by ordinary users, and is not organised by RPF or RPT beyond the provision of the website.
Signature retired

ejolson
Posts: 3031
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 2 v1.1 versus v1.2 Changes

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:52 pm

Stanto wrote:Technically speaking we are now living the alternative that there is no "Pi 2" except in name. What controlled the main identification of its revision appeared to be the processor chip alongside its features, and now what we have , is a "Pi 3 without the WiFi and bluetooth" branded as a "Pi 2".
In my opinion the main difference between Pi 2 and Pi 3 is not the SOC, but the fact that the hardware serial on the Pi 3 is connected to the WiFi/Bluetooth and therefore not available on the GPIO pins. Continuing to supply the Pi 2, albeit with a slightly different processor, shows great support by the foundation for commercial uses of the Pi 2 that rely on that serial interface or have licensing issues that make the addition of the WiFi/Bluetooth radio a problem.

As an aside, since running the Pi 3 with arm_freq=900 still generates enough heat to throttle, I expect the same will happen with the Pi 2 v 1.2.

Return to “General discussion”