redbear
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:04 pm

darkbibble wrote:shouldn't it be a pHAT like the other pi zero hats
We could not find the official endorsement of pHAT so far.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:08 pm

Massi wrote:sadly even this is limited to 2.4 GHz...
afaik this was a chioice of the foundation for the 3B, not an hardware limit (am i wrong?)
main reason is cost
1. 5GHz chipset is nearly double the price
2. we need to use an antenna that can handle both 2.4GHz and 5GHz
3. FCC & CE-R&TTE are more expensive too

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:09 pm

redbear wrote:
Massi wrote:sadly even this is limited to 2.4 GHz...
afaik this was a chioice of the foundation for the 3B, not an hardware limit (am i wrong?)
main reason is cost
1. 5GHz chipset is nearly double the price
2. we need to use an antenna that can handle both 2.4GHz and 5GHz
3. FCC & CE-R&TTE are more expensive too
i suspected that..
thanks

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:15 pm

will you be doing a version with a stacking header?? to give easy access to the other gpio pins left
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:32 pm

darkbibble wrote:will you be doing a version with a stacking header?? to give easy access to the other gpio pins left
To minimise logistical errors, we only offer two options in our campaign; with a "standard" 2x20 female header soldered on or just include the header as a separate component in the shipment. You have to get your own stacking header and do a bit of soldering.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:42 pm

that's unfortunate as a lot of pi users don't have the advanced soldering skills to do fine soldering.
it cost me £15 to get a header on my pi zero, so would mean another £15 for an engineer to add a header to allow access to the other pins.
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:15 pm

darkbibble wrote:that's unfortunate as a lot of pi users don't have the advanced soldering skills to do fine soldering.
it cost me £15 to get a header on my pi zero, so would mean another £15 for an engineer to add a header to allow access to the other pins.
I'll solder a header on for you if you want.

Pi hut carry them for £4 (I'm sure that they are cheaper elsewhere). If we make arrangements to ship your IoT HAT to me I'll solder on the header and ship the whole thing back to you.
Doug.
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liz
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:53 pm

It's not a HAT, and we would prefer it if organisations making add-ons without an eeprom did not call their devices HATs - your choice, but we'd definitely look more favourably on an FCC/CE conformant device that didn't misuse the nomenclature.
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:54 pm

darkbibble wrote:that's unfortunate as a lot of pi users don't have the advanced soldering skills to do fine soldering.
it cost me £15 to get a header on my pi zero, so would mean another £15 for an engineer to add a header to allow access to the other pins.
That's ridiculously expensive. You should have posted a request on the forums. Someone would have done it for you for a lot less.
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:05 pm

It goes like this... :D

Image

Ok I'm being a troll, but it's not a HAT.

It's actually a bugger to get an add-on board to be a HAT in terms of design and cost (those wee chips etc), so it's only right to respect that and go for "add-on board". I'm not sure the majority of buyers care either way (I don't personally) - I'm a backer.
Averagemaker.com

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:14 pm

sav25 wrote:It goes like this... :D
Ok I'm being a troll, but it's not a HAT.

It's actually a bugger to get an add-on board to be a HAT in terms of design and cost (those wee chips etc), so it's only right to respect that and go for "add-on board". I'm not sure the majority of buyers care either way (I don't personally) - I'm a backer.
I agree, It's not a 'HAT', it does not meet the specifications. However, the only specification it does not meet is the size. They have included the EPROM. I think it would make sense to have an official name and specification for the Pi Zero 'HAT', until the Foundation revise the specification to also include Pi Zero sized boards (or produce a new specification with a different name), this discussion will go on and on and on and...............

They seem to have done all they can to comply, lets get an official specification from the foundation so this discussion can be closed.

Keith.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:23 pm

That makes sense.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:27 pm

I would much more prefer a PiZero+ having bluetooth & wifi included, and even more at least a few gigs of memory ( like C.H.I.P.http://getchip.com/pages/chip ) for under $10, it would be perfect for IoT in the size & energy factor

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:35 pm

stderr wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
davidcoton wrote: Si if they reach the first goal but not the stretch goal, they'll make and sell an uncertified device? Please, NOOOOOO!
Might be a reward in turning them in.... Not that I'd ever suggest doing such a thing.
There should be global certification to speed this stuff along and not price anyone who is trying to innovate out of the legitimate market. But regarding not getting certification, most SBCs seem to be FCC Class A but are often sold to home users. Do you really think all those wifi and bt dongles shipped for a buck and half out of China are certified even if they claim to be right on the side? Back in the day, "Here's a handful of FCC Class B stickers." Well, I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to work.
Sure...a global certification process would make sense...for some people, but not for others. It's kind of like the old guilds, which were meant to restrict the number of people who were legally allowed to work at a particular trade (for pretty obvious reasons).

It's one of those "whose ox will get gored?" things.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:46 pm

redbear wrote: FCC & CE-R&TTE
It will cost a few thousand US dollars for both certifications but we are commit to get them for IoT ‘HAT’ if we could reach US$80k in funding. Please help us to spread the news.
I rather doubt the FCC would waive their requirements if you tell them you didn't raise enough money to get the certification. You are--rather publicly--saying that, unless you reach a particular goal, you will be selling an uncertified radio transmission device in the US.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:42 pm

keithellis wrote: I agree, It's not a 'HAT', it does not meet the specifications. However, the only specification it does not meet is the size.
And the connector, since some will be provided without connector. Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but something either meets the specs or doesn't.
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:45 pm

liz wrote:It's not a HAT, and we would prefer it if organisations making add-ons without an eeprom did not call their devices HATs - your choice, but we'd definitely look more favourably on an FCC/CE conformant device that didn't misuse the nomenclature.
IoT.HAT.overview.jpg
IoT.HAT.overview.jpg (57.79 KiB) Viewed 4011 times
We have an EEPROM on-board and conform to all the below requirements listed on https://github.com/raspberrypi/hats except #4.
1. It conforms to the basic add-on board requirements
2. It has a valid ID EEPROM (including vendor info, GPIO map and valid device tree information).
3. It has a full size 40W GPIO connector.
4. It follows the HAT mechanical specification
5. It uses a GPIO connector that spaces the HAT between 10mm and 12mm from the Pi (i.e. uses spacers between 10mm and 12mm).
6. If back powering via the GPIO connector the HAT must be able to supply a minimum of 1.3A continuously to the Pi (but ability to supply 2A continuously recommended).

My personally experience is that majority of the Pi users I talked to (including USA but all outside UK) do not know what a HAT is. And I think introducing another new name for add-on board designed for Pi-Zero will make the situation more confusing especially since our add-on board could be attached to any board with the 40-pins connector. Maybe all new Pi models will have Wi-Fi and/or Bluetooth built-in but there will always be other add-on boards that can be fitted on Pi Zero and others.

We could not anticipated the demand before our campaign but we are committed to the FCC & CE-R&TTE certifications at the current funding level.

We think this board deserves to call something more than an "add-on board" since we have gone through the extra steps. We hope that there will be an official name we could use when we launch to the public in July.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:10 pm

redbear wrote: 4. It follows the HAT mechanical specification

We think this board deserves to call something more than an "add-on board" since we have gone through the extra steps. We hope that there will be an official name we could use when we launch to the public in July.
Pimoroni has been designating add on boards for the Pi Zero as "partial HAT", normally given as "pHAT'. Their mechanical spec is that the mounting holes line up with the ones on the Pi Zero instead of the holes in a "full sized" Pi. Using that term would, if the rest of the specs are met, avoid confusion and dispose of the "it's not a HAT" issue. I have no idea if Pimoroni has done anything to protect the term. A polite note to them might be in order....

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:26 am

alexeames wrote: And the connector, since some will be provided without connector. Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but something either meets the specs or doesn't.
Alex, I totally agree, it's NOT a HAT. But until the Foundation revise the spec or issue a new one for the PiZero, this discussion is never going to end.

Using the Pimoroni 'pHAT' is not an option in my opinion. There is no official specification related to this.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:26 pm

keithellis wrote:Alex, I totally agree, it's NOT a HAT.
I know you do Keith. We are in agreement. I was just pointing out the second area it doesn't line up with the spec, which specifies the size of the header, which must therefore be attached.
keithellis wrote:But until the Foundation revise the spec or issue a new one for the PiZero, this discussion is never going to end.
Bit of an assumption. Maybe HAT is something reserved for full-sized Pi and it's been decided to keep it that way? WJDK.
If that is the case, don't hold your breath waiting for a smaller spec. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't appear (no inside knowledge, just an educated guess that it's not important enough to warrant engineer time).

Personally I probably wouldn't use pHAT either because I see it as a "Pimoroni thing". I'd probably do it "the old-fashioned hard way" and come up with my own name.
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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:41 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
redbear wrote: FCC & CE-R&TTE
It will cost a few thousand US dollars for both certifications but we are commit to get them for IoT ‘HAT’ if we could reach US$80k in funding. Please help us to spread the news.
I rather doubt the FCC would waive their requirements if you tell them you didn't raise enough money to get the certification. You are--rather publicly--saying that, unless you reach a particular goal, you will be selling an uncertified radio transmission device in the US.
I'm not sure how it works in the US but my understanding is for CE components don't have to be certified by their manufacturer but final products do. The question is whether a board like this is a component or a final product.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:54 pm

plugwash wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
redbear wrote: FCC & CE-R&TTE
It will cost a few thousand US dollars for both certifications but we are commit to get them for IoT ‘HAT’ if we could reach US$80k in funding. Please help us to spread the news.
I rather doubt the FCC would waive their requirements if you tell them you didn't raise enough money to get the certification. You are--rather publicly--saying that, unless you reach a particular goal, you will be selling an uncertified radio transmission device in the US.
I'm not sure how it works in the US but my understanding is for CE components don't have to be certified by their manufacturer but final products do. The question is whether a board like this is a component or a final product.
It's going to be "sold" to the general public. I would guess that that makes it just as much as WiFi/BT dongle is a final product.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:38 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
plugwash wrote: I'm not sure how it works in the US but my understanding is for CE components don't have to be certified by their manufacturer but final products do. The question is whether a board like this is a component or a final product.
It's going to be "sold" to the general public. I would guess that that makes it just as much as WiFi/BT dongle is a final product.
The FCC have an exemption from certification in the case of "subassemblies" - but it's a bit of a fuzzy area (reading it, I can't tell if some of the text creates an additional exception or provides an exception from the exceptions...) There's also an exemption for devices built by hobbyists if done in a run of up to 5 for personal use. So I think it's down to whether this add-on board is seen as a end-consumer product that "just plugs in" or a component sold to hobbyists that requires some specialist assembly to attach it to another device. Some of the subassembly text also determines devices designed to be mounted within the housing of another device differently, and of course the Pi Zero doesn't strictly have a housing (I can see an argument being made that it's assumed people are assembling them into cases, but whether that would fly is another matter)

Unofficially, Sparkfun try to break it down into plain(er) english at https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398
More officially, it looks like the things to read are
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010- ... 15-101.pdf (to see the list of exemptions)
and
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010- ... ec15-3.pdf (to see if it gets defined as a "CPU board" and therefore - if I'm reading it correctly - an exception to the list of exemptions which would therefore require certification)

My own (quite possibly flawed) interpretation is that if I were to buy the individual parts, and as parts selected by myself rather than in a preselected kit form (which itself seems to be a fuzzy area in which it still isn't 100% clear whether the certification process applies to the people selling the kit or the person assembling it), and then assemble it myself, then I'd be covered by the hobbyist exemption (as long as I didn't make more than five of them). If I were to buy the marketed, assembled device, or (possibly) to buy it as a marketed unassembled kit, it would need FCC certification as it falls under the category of "CPU Board" in that it is "(2) A circuit board that is a dedicated
controller for a storage or input/output device. "

Of course, all of the above is my own interpretation (in the hope of providing enough pointers for anyone interested enough to try and work it out for themselves), plus I'm in the UK so CE rather than FCC certification applies to me anyway.

All in all, if it were me selling the boards, I'd want to consult a lawyer before selling them before assuming I'm covered by an exemption (I'm still probably getting one though, the idea of networking my Pi Zero and keeping the single USB port free so I can use it in device mode is perfect for something I'm designing, I really wish they had separate device and host ports *sigh*)

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:40 am

Received mine today; testing on an A+ confirms BT and wireless are visable to the OS.

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Re: PiZero IoT HAT (bluetooth+wifi for $9)

Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:54 pm

asandford wrote:Received mine today; testing on an A+ confirms BT and wireless are visable to the OS.
Curious to see how it compares to the wifi on the Pi3 and any usb dongles. Did you get the external antenna?

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