User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:54 am

Hello Raspberry Pi staff members,
I don't know if this has been suggested before (the forum search didn't show anything, beyond one unanswered post in spanish). The RPi community has grown by leaps and bounds and this forum serves as a great resource for newbies and experiences users.
However, I feel the backend platform is old and doesn't have key ingredients of a modern forum software. Why not migrate to using a platform like Discourse? Has this been brought up in your meetings? Some benefits are mentioned here: https://forum.sublimetext.com/t/why-sub ... urse/14654

take care.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

User avatar
MarkHaysHarris777
Posts: 1820
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:39 am
Location: Rochester, MN
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:02 am

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:roll:
marcus
:ugeek:

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:05 am

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:roll:
But it IS broke, that's the point.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

User avatar
scruss
Posts: 2221
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:16 am

Works fine. You can search effectively (either on here, or through Site Search). It's all in one place. It's not gamefied, like Discourse. phpBB is pretty lightweight, and isn't just dreadful to admin.

So, no need to change.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.

Koeshi
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:19 pm

phpBB is a classic and really common for good reason. It is lightweight and easy to use. Precisely what you want for a place where many people are going to be connecting over very lightweight devices. I agree that their have been some improvements in forum software over the years that phpBB doesn't include, but do we really need them? And having taken a brief look at Discourse I can't see why you would choose that over something like IPVisions if you are going to go with a resource heavy software.

Heater
Posts: 12072
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:27 pm

Edit: Removed some "not"s from the line below.

Discourse is open source and free.

Changing would no doubt be a lot of work for someone.

First thing is to waste a few hundred hours on meetings to discuss if discourse or some other forum system is the way to go.

This forum works just fine.

What is "broken" about it by the way?
Last edited by Heater on Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

asavah
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:49 am

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:44 pm

Heater wrote:Discourse is not open source and not free.

Changing would no doubt be a lot of work for someone.

First thing is to waste a few hundred hours on meetings to discuss if discourse or some other forum system is the way to go.

This forum works just fine.

What is "broken" about it by the way?
Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense.
https://www.discourse.org/faq/
https://github.com/discourse/discourse/ ... ICENSE.txt

However discourse is a pain in the rear to work with,
lot's of hipster stuff - docker containers, ruby on rails, redis and etc.
Edit: Eg. in order to add a new plugin you need to rebuild the whole container, to update discourse you need to rebuild the whole thing again and so on ... meh ...

I've done a few deploys of discourse on production servers and I do not like it,
but that is just my opinion.
Last edited by asavah on Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shadowbyte
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:29 am

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:47 pm

I'd rather that the Raspberry Pi foundation be in the "Raspberry Pi" business and not in the forum business. The current website and forums are working well and personally I'd prefer the time/efforts be invested in development of the hardware and software of the product itself.

Heater
Posts: 12072
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:56 pm

asavah,
Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense
Oops. You are right. My fact checking got me as far as here: https://payments.discourse.org/buy/ I turned back.

Statement retracted.

I'm sure discourse is fine. It's just that I don't see any pressing need for change.
Last edited by Heater on Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:39 pm

If Discourse is anything like Disqus then it might turn out to be laden down with inefficient client side scripts that run like a dog (a shortlegged dog, not a whippet or greyhound) on many lower power computers, and that would include Pi.
Last edited by Pithagoros on Wed May 04, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
alexeames
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:57 am
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:42 pm

Because "Datcourse" is preferred. :lol:

Surprised nobody else said it. Nothing to see here. :D
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

mikerr
Posts: 2746
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:46 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:51 pm

electronicsguy wrote:
MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:roll:
But it IS broke, that's the point.
The default raspite theme is broken, it's fine if you set it to prosilver:

user control panel->board preferences->board style : prosilver
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

User avatar
Paul Webster
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:49 am
Location: London, UK
Contact: Twitter

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:31 pm

Discourse is what is used by OSMC, Pimoroni and FiveNinjas - and I presume others.
One thing I don't like about it is that it looks like RSS feed is only for new topics not new posts.

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:22 pm

Heater wrote:Edit: Removed some "not"s from the line below.

Discourse is open source and free.

Changing would no doubt be a lot of work for someone.

First thing is to waste a few hundred hours on meetings to discuss if discourse or some other forum system is the way to go.

This forum works just fine.

What is "broken" about it by the way?
So many things. Lets begin with one of the simplest things: notifications. Isn't it the most basic requirement, that if you login into a service, you're notified of replies, etc. You don't have that here. You have to use the clunky "Egosearch" bookmark method. And I'm not interested in getting emails for every reply.

There's no easy way to vote for good answers, and have others see those immediately. I like the infinite scroll compared to clicking next to navigate. There are many other UI and UX improvements.
This forum doesn't have a usable mobile view (or at least I haven't experienced it).

I feel simply dismissing it as "not needed" is somewhat of a short-term vision. If its truly horrendous to admin, that's understandable. But simply a not needed argument reminds me of people circa 2000 saying cap. touchscreen phones are not needed, or camera phones are not needed.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

Koeshi
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:44 pm

I would argue that we don't need touchscreen phones. Sure they are nifty, but on the scale of things they really aren't that important. Plus smartphones have created a whole new era of viruses and security issues.

Also due to its simplicity phpBB doesn't need a mobile version, it is simple and light enough to use comfortably with a phone.

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:48 pm

Koeshi wrote:I would argue that we don't need touchscreen phones. Sure they are nifty, but on the scale of things they really aren't that important. Plus smartphones have created a whole new era of viruses and security issues.

Also due to its simplicity phpBB doesn't need a mobile version, it is simple and light enough to use comfortably with a phone.
Ok, but 2 billion people would disagree with you. By that logic, you don't "need" cars as well. or for that matter airplanes. Horses and ships would serve just as well and wouldn't create a whole new era of car crashes or airplane hijackings correct?
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

dgordon42
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:55 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:12 pm

Some of the moderators (jamesh?) have hinted over the past few months that a forum upgrade is planed, although I have no idea what that will be, or when it will happen.

Dave.

Heater
Posts: 12072
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:55 pm

electronicsguy,
notifications. Isn't it the most basic requirement, that if you login into a service, you're notified of replies, etc.
I'd say "nice to have" rather than "basic requirement". I'd have to not use it. I have enough disturbances coming at me from essential places already.
There's no easy way to vote for good answers...
Perhaps nice to have. Personally I'm not much into it. Even on stackoverflow and such, where they have gone to a lot of effort to do that properly it still does not work a lot of the time. Wrong answers get up-voted. Good answers get overlooked. A good answer can be come incorrect due to changes in the system it's talking about. The upshot is you still have to read and evaluate every answer to sort the wheat from the chaff.
...infinite scroll compared to clicking next to navigate.
That would be "nice to have".
This forum doesn't have a usable mobile view
Which is odd, because I view this forum on my Android phone a lot.
...reminds me of people circa 2000 saying cap. touchscreen phones are not needed, or camera phones are not needed.
Bit of a non sequitur, But that would be correct touchscreen phones are not needed, or camera phones. Definitely in the "nice to have" category but they have their annoyances, like making their primary function, being a phone, harder to use and less reliable.

Anyway, this is all moot. The Foundation will change the forum software as and when they see fit and to whatever they think suites. My experience of other heavily used forums swapping their forum software is that they suffered massive complaints from users, data went missing and took a long time to recover. Old features people liked disappeared. Users drifted away. A lot of time effort and money was expended.

This is not to be taken lightly.

User avatar
Mandrewpi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:58 am

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:01 pm

electronicsguy wrote:
Koeshi wrote:I would argue that we don't need touchscreen phones. Sure they are nifty, but on the scale of things they really aren't that important. Plus smartphones have created a whole new era of viruses and security issues.

Also due to its simplicity phpBB doesn't need a mobile version, it is simple and light enough to use comfortably with a phone.
Ok, but 2 billion people would disagree with you. By that logic, you don't "need" cars as well. or for that matter airplanes. Horses and ships would serve just as well and wouldn't create a whole new era of car crashes or airplane hijackings correct?
90% of the time I use my phone on the forum and it works just fine using the raspite theme. The only problem is the android section, it works about as good as android does on the pi.
A computer is only as smart as its programmer. ;)

I own:
Pi B rev.2, Pi 2 B, Two Pi 3 B, Two Pi 3 b+, Pi Zero 1.2, Pi Zero 1.3, Two Pi Zero Ws.
I'm known elsewhere as mandrew1444

User avatar
MarkHaysHarris777
Posts: 1820
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:39 am
Location: Rochester, MN
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:40 pm

electronicsguy wrote:
MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:roll:
But it IS broke, that's the point.
This forum is working fine, does what it was intended to do, is clean, simple, intuitive and most importantly already in place. You don't change something like this forum for light and transient causes (like, you personally prefer something else).

This forum has only one negative, and its a positive ! It often has so many frickin people on it that there are too many connections and sometimes I have to wait a little bit in order to get logged on ! That's a good thing.

I don't find the forum broken in any significant way (not even from a personal preference perspective; ok I changed my theme).

I think its ok to bring this up as a discussion, certainly; but, at the end of the day, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

:mrgreen:
marcus
:ugeek:

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:05 pm

Heater wrote:electronicsguy,
notifications. Isn't it the most basic requirement, that if you login into a service, you're notified of replies, etc.
I'd say "nice to have" rather than "basic requirement". I'd have to not use it. I have enough disturbances coming at me from essential places already.
There's no easy way to vote for good answers...
Perhaps nice to have. Personally I'm not much into it. Even on stackoverflow and such, where they have gone to a lot of effort to do that properly it still does not work a lot of the time. Wrong answers get up-voted. Good answers get overlooked. A good answer can be come incorrect due to changes in the system it's talking about. The upshot is you still have to read and evaluate every answer to sort the wheat from the chaff.
...infinite scroll compared to clicking next to navigate.
That would be "nice to have".
This forum doesn't have a usable mobile view
Which is odd, because I view this forum on my Android phone a lot.
...reminds me of people circa 2000 saying cap. touchscreen phones are not needed, or camera phones are not needed.
Bit of a non sequitur, But that would be correct touchscreen phones are not needed, or camera phones. Definitely in the "nice to have" category but they have their annoyances, like making their primary function, being a phone, harder to use and less reliable.

Anyway, this is all moot. The Foundation will change the forum software as and when they see fit and to whatever they think suites. My experience of other heavily used forums swapping their forum software is that they suffered massive complaints from users, data went missing and took a long time to recover. Old features people liked disappeared. Users drifted away. A lot of time effort and money was expended.

This is not to be taken lightly.
I understand that change is hard for some people. BUt life changes, so do systems and protocols. There are people I know who "moved away" from semiconductors since they were used to vacuum tubes. By that logic, everything is just a "nice thing to have" and not needed - even the RPi or this forum itself.

If you don't care about the features you don't have to use it. You are perfectly allowed to ignore notifications, mobile themes, or cameras on phones. But let those apprehensions not distract the foundation from thinking about possibly newer platforms.

But anyways, this post is more for forum administrators and people who would like to see a newer, reactive, streamlined experience for users. It was just a suggestion towards that effort and a newer streamlined interface would be much appreciated.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

User avatar
MarkHaysHarris777
Posts: 1820
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:39 am
Location: Rochester, MN
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:13 pm

electronicsguy wrote: I understand that change is hard for some people.
No; change is hard for all people (its one of our defining characteristics as human beings).

(except for change agents; and the rest of us hate those guys)

The kind of human beings you are writing to primarily (administrators, moderators, decision makers) are the ones a change like this impacts the most. Asking those people to change (because of a stream-lining personal preference) when their life is already entrenched is unfeeling or insensitive on the one hand, and maybe rude on the other hand.

As a user I would modify my operations to accommodate whatever forum the RPF put up here... on the other hand, the change you are requesting would be a huge investment in change that would have diminishing returns on the investment.

(not a good thing)
marcus
:ugeek:

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:15 pm

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:
electronicsguy wrote: I understand that change is hard for some people.
No; change is hard for all people (its one of our defining characteristics as human beings).

(except for change agents; and the rest of us hate those guys)

The kind of human beings you are writing to primarily (administrators, moderators, decision makers) are the ones a change like this impacts the most. Asking those people to change (because of a stream-lining personal preference) when their life is already entrenched is unfeeling or insensitive on the one hand, and maybe rude on the other hand.

As a user I would modify my operations to accommodate whatever forum the RPF put up here... on the other hand, the change you are requesting would be a huge investment in change that would have diminishing returns on the investment.

(not a good thing)
I'd prefer the admin's views on it. Thanks.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 3692
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:43 pm

electronicsguy wrote: I'd prefer the admin's views on it. Thanks.
This is a public forum. Anyone is able to contribute, and should. The admin team will no doubt read the whole thread before responding, and will note the balance of opinion, not just yours.

As has already been said, changes are (were?) in the pipeline. What, and When, has not been announced. The admin team may not respond until they are ready to announce something. That (delayed response) should not be taken in itself to indicate any particular direction. It is even possible that a move to Discourse is imminent....
Signature retired

User avatar
electronicsguy
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Why not move to using Discourse for this forum?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:45 pm

davidcoton wrote:
electronicsguy wrote: I'd prefer the admin's views on it. Thanks.
This is a public forum. Anyone is able to contribute, and should. The admin team will no doubt read the whole thread before responding, and will note the balance of opinion, not just yours.

As has already been said, changes are (were?) in the pipeline. What, and When, has not been announced. The admin team may not respond until they are ready to announce something. That (delayed response) should not be taken in itself to indicate any particular direction. It is even possible that a move to Discourse is imminent....
of course. I said I'd prefer the admin's views - in the sense that it's they who can best judge and give us a clear answer of the amount of effort, money, etc. required for a change.

take care.
blog: https://electronicsguy.wordpress.com
github: https://github.com/electronicsguy

Return to “General discussion”