Page 4 of 7

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:45 am
by jamesh
Higgs wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote:"I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. "


Surprise - but what you think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't determine the course of the universe.
/shrug What was that about "only an opinion"?
Sure cheap matters. When you add the cost of interfacing to it with cables and hubs, how much is it really? How much to add that instead in bulk to producing them? How many PiZ's before the marginal cost of the function added to each one breaks even to the added cost of the add-ons?
Do I have to amortize the cost of the trains, trucks, airplanes, and--possibly--ships that it takes to deliver the Pi Zero as well? From the RPTs perspective, the cost of a Pi is the retail price of the board, just as it is for every other Pi. The RPT wants the purchase price of the board to be as low as possible. All other bits and bobs are up to the user to decide what he needs. If have a Pi Zero project that will require, a micro SD card ($3), a PSU (I have 1A spares from the Model B days, $0), an OTG cable ($1.49), an RTC ($2.58), 5 header pins ($0.15?), and a USB to Ethernet adapter ($6 for the one I plan to use). If I use any other Pi (say an A+), I'd need most of that (just take off the pins and the OTG cable, so less than $2) but I'd be start from at least a $20 base, but at that point, a B+ (at $25) would be cheaper because it already has an Ethernet port.

What you *do* with a Pi Zero, or any other model, is up to you. What you add to it to accomplish that is up to you. The RPT is just seeing that the price of the board is as cheap as they can arrange it to be.

I'm not sure what part of that is causing the problem, but it is--somehow--at least a failure to accept the RPTs premise.
Yes - and what was that about "not censoring opinions". My original opinion was about the RPi functionality. Yours was about me. THAT'S the opinion that doesn't matter. And if you have the emotional need to direct people into what they "should" be doing, knock yourself out.

Let's make it even cheaper and leave out the HDMI video too.
Leaving out HDMI would save about 10c (cost of connector), so not a good example.

I was about to clean this thread of a lot of the nonsense above, but couldn't be bothered, so will just say "Be nice to each other". I don't want to have to go through and delete stuff, I'm busy, but any further tit-for-tat, and I will, rapidly followed by me handing out bans like confetti, just because.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:47 am
by spock
a camera connector would be sooo cool. :) that would be totally incredible on a 5$ board.

but i guess that would be too expensive, so i also guess that they will add audio solder pads. :)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:18 am
by hippy
Given the debate on what the Foundation will or won't do, can and can't do, how cost affects things ... it will be interesting to see what new feature is actually added.

Is there an ETA for when the new Zeroes will be rolling off the line and appearing in shops ?

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:19 am
by RaTTuS
hippy wrote:Given the debate on what the Foundation will or won't do, can and can't do, how cost affects things ... it will be interesting to see what new feature is actually added.

Is there an ETA for when the new Zeroes will be rolling off the line and appearing in the shops ?
if they go into production monday , I reckon by the next monday there will be Pi's in some places [pimoroni first ?] by the following monday

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:42 am
by gregeric
A qualified 1-2 weeks according to Pimoroni themselves, as of yesterday's Bilge Tank

Just in time for MagPi 45 perhaps :twisted:

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:07 pm
by TonyD
Maker Faire UK is next week (Sat/Sun 23/24 April) I wonder if we'll see any prototype units there :-)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:22 pm
by W. H. Heydt
TonyD wrote:Maker Faire UK is next week (Sat/Sun 23/24 April) I wonder if we'll see any prototype units there :-)
Could be actual production models there.

It does seem to me that the feature announcement will probably be Monday, though. Audio header holes is, I think, a reasonable expectation, though it does occur to me some provision for attaching WiFi the way it's done on the Pi3B would be a possibility.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:38 pm
by Cancelor
W. H. Heydt wrote:
TonyD wrote:Maker Faire UK is next week (Sat/Sun 23/24 April) I wonder if we'll see any prototype units there :-)
Could be actual production models there.

It does seem to me that the feature announcement will probably be Monday, though. Audio header holes is, I think, a reasonable expectation, though it does occur to me some provision for attaching WiFi the way it's done on the Pi3B would be a possibility.
An ESP8266 beater then. :D

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:42 pm
by fsck
A full-size HDMI connector would be lovely.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:01 pm
by jdb
fsck wrote:A full-size HDMI connector would be lovely.
The footprint of the board (including existing connectors) won't change. Doing so risks breaking third-party value-add things like enclosures/designed-in products.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:15 pm
by darkbibble
the addition of a micro flux-capacitor would be handy ;)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:52 pm
by zeth
All very sensible guesses so far. Based on no evidence of course but I think it would be cool for the Pi to eventually incorporate Sense HAT type features if they ever get cheap enough, so my outlandish guess: Accelerometer

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:57 pm
by stderr
W. H. Heydt wrote:
TonyD wrote:Maker Faire UK is next week (Sat/Sun 23/24 April) I wonder if we'll see any prototype units there :-)
Could be actual production models there.

It does seem to me that the feature announcement will probably be Monday, though. Audio header holes is, I think, a reasonable expectation, though it does occur to me some provision for attaching WiFi the way it's done on the Pi3B would be a possibility.
Wouldn't we be getting leaks from the moles at the FCC?

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:07 pm
by 6by9
stderr wrote:Wouldn't we be getting leaks from the moles at the FCC?
Unless it is WiFi (ruled out by Eben) or Bluetooth (unlikely as it shared the same chip as WiFi), then it won't be a deliberate radio generator, so no FCC declaration required.
And as Farnell don't sell the Zero, they can't blunder on the advertising either!

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:19 pm
by Douglas6
Are we going to get an answer on Monday, or when the Zero ships? (Put me down in the pool for audio pads.)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:57 pm
by jasonclark
I'd love D+/D- for USB... Not an extra USB port, but just the signals from the main connector.

Would allow HATs to provide USB functionality (Wifi/Ethernet/Webcam etc)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:54 am
by mikronauts
My guess (which others have already suggested) is that the new revision Pi Zero wil have a CSI connector.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:18 am
by DougieLawson
mikronauts wrote:My guess (which others have already suggested) is that the new revision Pi Zero wil have a CSI connector.
That's just what I was thinking. There's been a lot of disappointed folks on here when they're told their only option is USB camera.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:36 am
by W. H. Heydt
mikronauts wrote:My guess (which others have already suggested) is that the new revision Pi Zero wil have a CSI connector.
That would take a board redesign and not--I think--a trivial one, plus...where would you put it?

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:35 am
by Nightwing2012
Audio or some other connector that hard or not there now makes sense. A micro not a mini HDMI would make cabling adapter what ever easier And or up the chip with a better one makes sense also.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:09 am
by gregeric
W. H. Heydt wrote:That would take a board redesign and not--I think--a trivial one, plus...where would you put it?
We've come to expect miracles now they've a bit of cash to spend on engineering time :D. The Sunny connector on the cam module is quite small; if money were no object (which it isn't in this case) you could embed a reduced component camera board on there (you wouldn't need the xtal for starters, use GPCLK). Use whatever connector the next cam uses. Won't spoil the sleek lines with a clunky connector that way. That does restrict the mounting/pointing options somewhat, so maybe the reduced size CMIO style flat cable connector which fits between the mounting holes on the short side - but that would require an adapter board or zero-specific camera board.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:27 am
by fsck
jdb wrote:
fsck wrote:A full-size HDMI connector would be lovely.
The footprint of the board (including existing connectors) won't change. Doing so risks breaking third-party value-add things like enclosures/designed-in products.
A man can dream, can't he? ;)
I akways saw the miniHDMI connector as an unnecessary extra cost for the user, as people rarely have a cable for it already and need to purchase an adapter if they want video. An adaptor is only $2, but $2 is 40% of $5... As for the PiZero enclosures, the market always adapts quick.

The Zero is already a work of art in efficiency, and the PCB is pretty crammed, so I highly doubt CSI being a possibility, unless they increase PCB layer count. Audio pins seem the most likely, and the inclusion of header pins would be my second guess.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:05 pm
by DougieLawson
gregeric wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:That would take a board redesign and not--I think--a trivial one, plus...where would you put it?
We've come to expect miracles now they've a bit of cash to spend on engineering time :D. The Sunny connector on the cam module is quite small; if money were no object (which it isn't in this case) you could embed a reduced component camera board on there (you wouldn't need the xtal for starters, use GPCLK).
Wow, that's a completely off-the-wall idea, but could be the way they'll do it. They're going to have to reveal the new camera module as part of that change because the old Omnivision OV5647 is end-of-life (but we won't be surprised when that happens anyway).

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:09 pm
by gregeric
fsck wrote:I highly doubt CSI being a possibility, unless they increase PCB layer count.
Why does everyone assume more layers are needed? Only 6 tracks are needed for the cam. There are already 4 redundant GPIOs brought out topside on the Zero - do away with connections to those balls, then there are just two extra balls to route out than before. Given that they are geniuses over there in Pi Towers, no prob. My only doubt re CSI at the current price point is the cost of the connector.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:54 pm
by blaablaaguy
Nightwing2012 wrote:Audio or some other connector that hard or not there now makes sense. A micro not a mini HDMI would make cabling adapter what ever easier And or up the chip with a better one makes sense also.
Micro HDMI makes sense. I always wondered why they used a mini and not micro.