TheGuyUk
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People mention about Pi Z clones

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:13 pm

I notice in the discussion on Pi Z availability that some have mentioned why does some one not make a Pi Z clone or a £10 Pi Z . As many know there is the £10 Orange Pi One, but these have a poor record on support and software support if you trust other comments posted on the internet.

Thing is, RPi F said they hoped there would be clones and it would help spread computers to those not so economically well off.

So being a natural day dreamer ( where there never are problems in doing things ).

I asked myself " Should the web programmers who help with the Pi software and Debian programmers extend a hand of friendship to a competitor by helping them get Debian and Rasbian properly working, on the Orange Pi One".

From a hard cold business model and thinking of Welsh jobs perhaps not but for a charity who proclaimed they wanted Pi clones and to enable people to afford a computer ?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:31 pm

TheGuyUk wrote:I notice in the discussion on Pi Z availability that some have mentioned why does some one not make a Pi Z clone or a £10 Pi Z . As many know there is the £10 Orange Pi One, but these have a poor record on support and software support if you trust other comments posted on the internet.

Thing is, RPi F said they hoped there would be clones and it would help spread computers to those not so economically well off.

So being a natural day dreamer ( where there never are problems in doing things ).

I asked myself " Should the web programmers who help with the Pi software and Debian programmers extend a hand of friendship to a competitor by helping them get Debian and Rasbian properly working, on the Orange Pi One".

From a hard cold business model and thinking of Welsh jobs perhaps not but for a charity who proclaimed they wanted Pi clones and to enable people to afford a computer ?
The SoC on the clones is completely different, so the RPF Software Engineers would have to learn about such things as Mali GPU Drivers and the various other ARM CPU's.. Dream on...

btw the Orange Pi One is $9.99 / £7.04 plus Postage etcetera ;)

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 08880.html
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Pithagoros
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:36 pm

Arduinos are cloned out of sight now and have had to re-invent themselves as Genuino. I can't see there one day being a Genuberry Pi.

I like the idea of all the Raspberry Pi effort being ultimately channeled back toward education, rather than to support a profit making business that exists to make a few individuals wealthy.
Last edited by Pithagoros on Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

TheGuyUk
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:51 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
TheGuyUk wrote:I notice in the discussion on Pi Z availability that some have mentioned why does some one not make a Pi Z clone or a £10 Pi Z . As many know there is the £10 Orange Pi One, but these have a poor record on support and software support if you trust other comments posted on the internet.

Thing is, RPi F said they hoped there would be clones and it would help spread computers to those not so economically well off.

So being a natural day dreamer ( where there never are problems in doing things ).

I asked myself " Should the web programmers who help with the Pi software and Debian programmers extend a hand of friendship to a competitor by helping them get Debian and Rasbian properly working, on the Orange Pi One".

From a hard cold business model and thinking of Welsh jobs perhaps not but for a charity who proclaimed they wanted Pi clones and to enable people to afford a computer ?
The SoC on the clones is completely different, so the RPF Software Engineers would have to learn about such things as Mali GPU Drivers and the various other ARM CPU's.. Dream on...

btw the Orange Pi One is $9.99 / £7.04 plus Postage etcetera ;)

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 08880.html

I understood Rasbian to be based on Debian although optimized for the Pi.

Debian is a cross processor Linux, Mali GPU is quite common with Arm soc so there might be plenty of Mali GPU experience with Debian programmers?

If yes do the two talk with each other?

Just wondering.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:46 pm

TheGuyUk wrote:I asked myself " Should the web programmers who help with the Pi software and Debian programmers extend a hand of friendship to a competitor by helping them get Debian and Rasbian properly working, on the Orange Pi One".
As mentioned, the difference the Pi clones and the real thing is mostly the difference between the VC4 GPU and the Mali GPU. While Debian will work on more hardware, it is less focused on education. There are compatibility problems with Raspbian because some of the software is GPU specific. Moreover, Broadcom is currently sponsoring an open source driver for the VC4 which may further distinguish the Raspberry Pi as a learning environment.

A few years ago Raspbian could be booted using a QEMU ARM emulator on a desktop PC and many applications, including Mathematica but not Minecraft, would work. It is not clear what applications in the current release of Raspbian still work. In particular, it would be very useful to identify which applications in the current release actually run on the Orange Pi. As Mathematica costs $2745 for the standard license and $300 for hobbyist use, it is by far the biggest freebie in Raspbian. I wonder whether it still runs and what the licensing implications are for doing so.

Pithagoros
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:35 am

ejolson wrote:A few years ago Raspbian could be booted using a QEMU ARM emulator on a desktop PC and many applications, including Mathematica but not Minecraft, would work.
I had done a bit of googling last week and I found a guide to getting Jessie working in QEMU. A bit fiddly but not too bad.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:05 am

Allwinner hardware might have libre bootloaders , but with limadriver dead , ARM sticking to BLOBS and Anholt working on VC4 the Pi is a much better position
in terms of open-source 3D , which might appeal to people in line with Debians core value of focus on free software.

The Raspberry Pi foundation is also investing time , manpower and money into making AND maintaining open-source software, e.g. through upstreaming their efforts into various
projects , including the Linux kernel itself.

The whole point of Raspbian is that there wasn't much impetus inside Debian itself to make and maintain an
ARMv6 hardfloat version. It is the fantastic result of a "if you want to get something done , roll up your sleeves and do it yourself" mentality (and a lot of blood , sweat and tears
i presume).

Might something like Raspbian happen inside the Orange Pi community ? Be the change you want to see in the world.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:02 am

Companies naming their ARM SBCs as some "fruit Pi" just want to make profit from the Raspberry Pi community. They are not interested in education but simply trying to extract money from the movement.

Companies claiming "Raspberry Pi compatibility" just because their IO adapter has 40 connections and a similar pinout are just liars.

Companies offering "Raspbian" for their boards are also lying, because the Raspbian we know comes from two different sources: raspbian.org (which could be used by anyone) and archiv.raspberrypi.com which contains all the stuff that has been adapted to the Pi and it's SOC, software the Foundation has paid for, and also the free Mathematica version, which has only been licensed to the Foundation and to nobody else. All this won't work or may not be used by other companies. In fact, those companies might be better off using plain Debian or Ubuntu, but they just want to claim another type of "Raspberry Pi compatibility".

Trusting such companies I'd call stupid.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:56 pm

Pithagoros wrote:Arduinos are cloned out of sight now and have had to re-invent themselves as Genuino. I can't see there one day being a Genuberry Pi.
The Arduino / Genuino issue is a little complicated but it seems to boil down to a trademark ownership and licensing dispute -

http://makezine.com/2015/03/19/massimo- ... or-arduino

It is difficult to see how the same woes could afflict "Raspberry Pi" and those involved in that, but things could potentially sour if there were dispute or disagreement between Foundation, Pi Trading or licensee manufacturers, over who owns what rights and the direction they should be going in.

The Raspberry Pi trademark is clearly registered to the Foundation in the UK, USA and elsewhere, and the current set-up is no doubt covered by written agreements, so it is highly unlikely things would ever go the way or get as a bad as they have over the Arduino mark.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:58 pm

Yeah - we're on pretty friendly terms with Massimo, and it seems that what happened was a failure to get the proper legal docs in place at the start. Ours are (and always have been) ABSOLUTELY watertight - one of our trustees is Louis Glass, who works at Olswang, and he'd skin us alive if they weren't!
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solar3000
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:08 pm

I say bring 'em on! Clones bring great ideas. Its still more costly than the zero.
You can always choose not to buy it.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:12 pm

solar3000 wrote:I say bring 'em on! Clones bring great ideas. Its still more costly than the zero.
You can always choose not to buy it.
And people have been choosing not to buy them for years....and I am somewhat intrigued to know what 'great' ideas clones have brought forth.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:15 pm

jamesh wrote:
solar3000 wrote:I say bring 'em on! Clones bring great ideas. Its still more costly than the zero.
You can always choose not to buy it.
And people have been choosing not to buy them for years....and I am somewhat intrigued to know what 'great' ideas clones have brought forth.

Séamus H, I don't have any of the clones either. (orange pi, banana pi, etc...) Thought about it though.
You seem uneasy about clones. What are we afraid of? Let them compete. Who cares. The pi foundation has lots of backing.
Last edited by solar3000 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:19 pm

The Element 14 'Design your own Pi' service could be described as an, open to everyone, cloning operation.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:21 pm

solar3000 wrote:
jamesh wrote:
solar3000 wrote:I say bring 'em on! Clones bring great ideas. Its still more costly than the zero.
You can always choose not to buy it.
And people have been choosing not to buy them for years....and I am somewhat intrigued to know what 'great' ideas clones have brought forth.

I don't have any of the clones either. (orange pi, banana pi, etc...) Thought about it though.
You seem uneasy about clones. What are we afraid of? Let them compete. Who cares. The pi foundation has lots of backing.
Uneasy? Nope. Afraid of them? Nope. I just look at how the market has been over the last 4 years, who has succeeded, who hasn't. Who needs to make money, who doesn't. The Foundation had no backing to start with, and survives off it's own funding now (no external backers AFAIK), not on Eben's mortgage. Clones have had 4 years to compete. No-one has got even vaguely close, and it's difficult to see how they could.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:26 pm

SéamusH wrote: Uneasy? Nope. Afraid of them? Nope. I just look at how the market has been over the last 4 years, who has succeeded, who hasn't. Who needs to make money, who doesn't. The Foundation had no backing to start with, and survives off it's own funding now (no external backers AFAIK), not on Eben's mortgage. Clones have had 4 years to compete. No-one has got even vaguely close, and it's difficult to see how they could.
SéamusH, relax. Ok, you're not afraid.
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startrek.steve
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:28 pm

Well when I was an Amiga and Atari ST Fanboy - PC clones killed off just about every other computer apart from Apple, I suppose bringing standardisation in (which was good) so I suppose you could say the same about SOC computers - standardisation (although not yet though)
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:04 pm

TBH, the Orange/Roseapple/Banana lot ARE annoying; it's really not cool to have someone ride on your coattails like that. We really do wish other manufacturers all the success in the world, but we also wish they wouldn't rely on the name and brand we've spent years working on to try to get an audience. It's just...rude.

And don't call James "Seamus". That's rude too.
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hippy
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:06 pm

startrek.steve wrote:Well when I was an Amiga and Atari ST Fanboy - PC clones killed off just about every other computer apart from Apple, I suppose bringing standardisation in (which was good) so I suppose you could say the same about SOC computers - standardisation (although not yet though)
I was involved in developing SBC's in the 80's and the problem then was which CPU to support. That venture ultimately failed because the wrong horses were backed and the world moved in a different direction.

Though it seems ARM will continue to dominate the SBC and embedded market for a good time to come; the potential Achilles heal of the Pi is perhaps the choice of SoC. The Pi currently has an appealing low price, a non-profit running the show which wants and can keep price low, and a massive community behind it, but things could change if developers swing to preferring a more widely available SoC and prices elsewhere drop. Others have already noted the difficulty of changing SoC with the loss of years of development which has gone into honing what we have so the PI could end up stuck with the difficult choice of lagging behind or changing direction; neither of which would be appealing.

I personally don't see a change of SoC and loss of past investment being that much of a problem if that is the cost of remaining in the game. I expect the Pi would evolve to meet any external challenges if it needed to.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:18 pm

hippy wrote:The Element 14 'Design your own Pi' service could be described as an, open to everyone, cloning operation ...
... with a seriously large initial investment for 3000 units needed.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:30 pm

liz wrote:TBH, the Orange/Roseapple/Banana lot ARE annoying; it's really not cool to have someone ride on your coattails like that. We really do wish other manufacturers all the success in the world, but we also wish they wouldn't rely on the name and brand we've spent years working on to try to get an audience. It's just...rude.
That's why I think better of Hardkernel with their "Odriod" series of boards, even though they look rather like someone throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks. At the low end there is NTC with the C.H.I.P. board in the works and the PINE64 boards. At least those companies are doing their own branding.

I suspect that the <fruit> Pi> imitators (they aren't really "clones") are not actually doing themselves any favors. Yes, they probably sell a board here and there based on the specifications, and probably a few to Raspberry Pi users (experienced ones) to see haw they work and what features they, and to investigate if the boards meet special needs or to determine they wish to advocate particular features the *real* Pi might benefit from.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:45 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
liz wrote:TBH, the Orange/Roseapple/Banana lot ARE annoying; it's really not cool to have someone ride on your coattails like that. We really do wish other manufacturers all the success in the world, but we also wish they wouldn't rely on the name and brand we've spent years working on to try to get an audience. It's just...rude.
That's why I think better of Hardkernel with their "Odriod" series of boards, even though they look rather like someone throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks. At the low end there is NTC with the C.H.I.P. board in the works and the PINE64 boards. At least those companies are doing their own branding.

I suspect that the <fruit> Pi> imitators (they aren't really "clones") are not actually doing themselves any favors. Yes, they probably sell a board here and there based on the specifications, and probably a few to Raspberry Pi users (experienced ones) to see haw they work and what features they, and to investigate if the boards meet special needs or to determine they wish to advocate particular features the *real* Pi might benefit from.
Nail on head there I think. I also have no problem with ODROID or similar - no coat tail hanging there, just getting with the job. And they are fairly if not wildly successful.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:55 pm

hippy wrote:. . . the potential Achilles heal of the Pi is perhaps the choice of SoC. The Pi currently has an appealing low price, a non-profit running the show which wants and can keep price low, and a massive community behind it, but things could change if developers swing to preferring a more widely available SoC and prices elsewhere drop. Others have already noted the difficulty of changing SoC with the loss of years of development which has gone into honing what we have so the PI could end up stuck with the difficult choice of lagging behind or changing direction; neither of which would be appealing.
In the long run, perhaps some other SoC will make sense, but I see the strength of the RPi being the available level of support and the cross product compatibility. Getting into a hardware spec "arms race" potentially breaks that paradigm and dilutes the effort going into making the product they do have as accessible as possible. Lagging behind the cutting edge of ARM SoC, having limited I/O bandwidth, and not matching the price of Chinese sort-of-but-not-quite-clones are all secondary to accessibility in the RPi model and why it has been far more successful than any competitor.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:57 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:The Element 14 'Design your own Pi' service could be described as an, open to everyone, cloning operation ...
... with a seriously large initial investment for 3000 units needed.
...and still the same SoC so it is still a Raspberry Pi with Licensing Restrictions, IPR etal ;)
Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:01 pm

AFAIK, there are few if any SoC's with the same feature set. ie DSI/CSI. So a 'drop in' replacement will be difficult, especially at the current price points. E.g. ARM don't have a camera ISP, so the usual suspects who just bolt together ARM HW blocks don't have them, and it would have to be added with another chip. Of course someone may come out with an all singing all dancing chip, but something like that is more expensive to make, so there isn't much incentive. Deciding on chip design (and fabrication) is certainly a dark art, with lots of tradeoffs to be made between features, cost and prospective market.
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