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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:47 pm

Instead of throwing around random unsubstantiated accusations, let's try some debugging, hmm? Eight million Pis shipped and we seem to have a relative absence of "I did X with my Pi and it's horribly unreliable" posts.

First off:
Nemo1966 wrote:http://www.megahard.pro/blog/raspberryw ... waredesign

Explains quite a lot.
Disregard this link. It is written by someone who hasn't the faintest idea what they're talking about.

It seems that the symptom is "unspecified USB/network outages". Is the Pi crashing? Is the USB bus going away? Is Ethernet just dropping out?

What is the determinant for deciding that the Pi has entered a "bad" state?
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Nemo1966
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:34 pm

Just because you're having trouble with them doesn't mean that they're not usable. I'm sorry that you're struggling with your Pi2Bs, but mine has been running as a desktop PC and media centre pretty much 24/7 for several weeks now with all 4 USB ports occupied (WiFi dongle, wireless keyboard and mouse dongle/USB printer/external HDD) whilst being heavily overclocked and hasn't missed a beat except when I've been experimenting with pushing the limits of the overclock, which is clearly my own fault.

As a moderator said earlier, if the problems you were experiencing were common then this forum would be awash with complaints about it, but it isn't. Please stay calm and try to work through this problem logically as something is clearly going wrong at your end that isn't happening to nearly any other user.
I can see that side of the argument, however the "fix" or "explantion" seems to be power supplies and cables - but I have all the official equipment (power supplies and USB hubs/cables). Should I really have to start experimenting with power supplies and specialised usb cables just to get it to work in a satisfactory manner?

Do I have to do this on every Pi2 board?

A device driver problem, firmware/bios problem I could understand, appreciate and use hacks/workarounds until a solution was released. But when the official power supplies are not sufficient then they are not fit for the purpose they were intended for OR the design of the Pi2 is defective.

Can you imagine BMW selling you a car and saying you need a special ptetrol for it to work properly, OK so I buy the special fuel and the car keep conking out after a few hours. When I ask what the problem is they say it's the petrol you are using. But I am using your special petrol, BMW say well you need to find different petrol that will work, oh and btw it might be the engine HT leads, you might need to find some better ones, because the ones we supply are crap :shock:

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:38 pm

As far as I can tell you still have not told us exactly what you are doing. Hardware, software, the works.

Sorry if I have missed that in this thread.

Bottom line is 8 million odd Pi have been sold and as far as I can tell few have come back as "not fit for purpose". So it would be interesting to know what your special case is.
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Nemo1966
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:38 pm


Disregard this link. It is written by someone who hasn't the faintest idea what they're talking about.

It seems that the symptom is "unspecified USB/network outages". Is the Pi crashing? Is the USB bus going away? Is Ethernet just dropping out?

What is the determinant for deciding that the Pi has entered a "bad" state?
Thanks for the reply:

The usb and network locks up (no ssh access), lots of cpu messages on the screen and only a hard reset will bring it back to life.

I could understand it being power or a cable of it happened after a short while, but it runs for 12 - 36 hours and just crashes anytime in between.

Despite what it sounds like I like the Pi2 I am just a bit irked that it is unreliable (for me) and the answer seems to be power supplies etc when I am using official Pi equipment.

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:46 pm

"...lots of cpu messages on the screen..."

I think we need to see those.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:49 pm

The usb and network locks up (no ssh access), lots of cpu messages on the screen and only a hard reset will bring it back to life.
What exactly are these "cpu messages" ?
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:56 pm

Heater wrote:As far as I can tell you still have not told us exactly what you are doing. Hardware, software, the works.

Sorry if I have missed that in this thread.

Bottom line is 8 million odd Pi have been sold and as far as I can tell few have come back as "not fit for purpose". So it would be interesting to know what your special case is.
Right OK -

Pi2
Official 2amp power supply
Pihut usb hub (specially designed for PI with no voltage feedback)
8gig Class 10 branded Microsd
Raspbian Wheezy 4.1.13-v7+ #826 SMP (updated to latest)
Omnikey USB card reader -> plugged into external hub
HDMI monitor connected
It's never run at over 36 degrees C or over approx 3% cpu usage (spike) usually about 0.3 to 0.7%)

Running a small program called Oscam < 812kb in size. NOTHING ELSE.

Oscam simply reads the card every 7-10 seconds and provides a small web interface to see the results.

The same app (same build number exactly) runs on a 10.04 LTS Ubuntu pentium laptop with less ram and approx the same processing power (single core though). This has run for over 4 years without reboot. This server also ran an MPD server, FTP server, samba server etc and didn't break a sweat. The HD crashed on this and then I saw the beautiful Pi2 and thought, what a perfect solution for a simple app as a great price

The same app havs run for months on an old WRT54gl router running dd-wrt. I have even have it running emulated on a windows 7 PC for several months.

Actually when I think about it the ONLY thing it crashes on is the Pi2 :shock:

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:05 pm

jahboater wrote:
The usb and network locks up (no ssh access), lots of cpu messages on the screen and only a hard reset will bring it back to life.
What exactly are these "cpu messages" ?
Looking through the logs now trying to find them...

stderr
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:32 pm

Nemo1966 wrote:Actually when I think about it the ONLY thing it crashes on is the Pi2 :shock:
People are talking about power issues because you are talking about it being a hardware issue. *If* it is a hardware issue, the problem can most often be traced back to power problems. That reality certainly doesn't have to apply in your case.

I don't think you've said whether or not you can just leave the pi running without the app that blows up the machine running. And if so, whether or not some other app can be run that exercises the machine and whether or not that crashes. And what happens when you put in a completely different sdcard with, say, another version of some OS on it and then run that.

Even aside from the current logs and all that, it would be cool to have these above data because they would help divide up what could be going wrong very quickly, at least they often do.

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:32 am

Nemo1966 wrote:...
Running a small program called Oscam < 812kb in size. NOTHING ELSE.
...
What is oscam
how did you install it where did it come from
what does it do ?

size does not matter
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:28 am

Nemo1966 wrote: Despite what it sounds like I like the Pi2 I am just a bit irked that it is unreliable (for me) and the answer seems to be power supplies etc when I am using official Pi equipment.
The vast majority of issues reported here can be traced back to power issues. So that is always the first point of call. No-one is saying that is the problem here, just that it might be the problem here. Subsequent posts seem to indicate it not power, so more investigation required. Simple as that. Try to get answers to the questions above, that will give us a much better idea of where the problem is.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:02 am

Many posters state that they are using the 'official' power supply and assume that power is not a possible cause of their issues.

A PSU may be designed and built to output what it says on the label - but that does not mean that a few sub-standard devices will not get through testing
There may be some degradation over time as well - and if you have power hungry devices hanging off your Pi that can cause problems too...
...and then there are USB leads of very varying quality

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:27 am

fruit-uk wrote:Many posters state that they are using the 'official' power supply and assume that power is not a possible cause of their issues.

A PSU may be designed and built to output what it says on the label - but that does not mean that a few sub-standard devices will not get through testing
There may be some degradation over time as well - and if you have power hungry devices hanging off your Pi that can cause problems too...
...and then there are USB leads of very varying quality

Also, I do not know if these 'official' devices have built in USB leads or people are using any old thing. the lead is an important part and should be decent quality.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:46 pm

So, started some testing - disabled the small oscam app and removed the card reader on the Pi2 and installed MPD server (Music Player Daemon - this is a time tested and proven stable app for linux of all types).

Using the exact same powered usb hub and power supply for the hub + cables and Pi2 (Pihut). Connected a usb HDD with mp3 files on it to the hub. Start the server playing the ABBA Gold album in a loop.

At the same time threw a small SSD drive in the Pentium laptop and installed Ubuntu 14.04 LTS and setup the small cardserver app (just like it was on the Pi2). Using exactly the same hub + cables with power supplies (Pihut etc etc) and started the oscam app up. (card reader connect to powered hub same as on pi2)

Going to monitor those for a few days and see what happens.

cheers

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:01 pm

Nemo1966,
...playing the ABBA Gold album in a loop.
OK. Now I understand. If I had to listen to ABBA in a loop I would commit suicide ASAP

:)
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:06 pm

Heater wrote:Nemo1966,
...playing the ABBA Gold album in a loop.
OK. Now I understand. If I had to listen to ABBA in a loop I would commit suicide ASAP

:)
haha! Not actually got any speakers connected to it :D

But hey! it's Abba 8-)

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:21 am

jamesh wrote: Also, I do not know if these 'official' devices have built in USB leads or people are using any old thing. the lead is an important part and should be decent quality.
The Raspberry branded power supply does not use a USB-A to microUSB, the cable is fully integrated.
https://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/r ... wer-supply
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:24 am

Nemo1966 wrote:
Heater wrote:Nemo1966,
...playing the ABBA Gold album in a loop.
OK. Now I understand. If I had to listen to ABBA in a loop I would commit suicide ASAP

:)
haha! Not actually got any speakers connected to it :D

But hey! it's Abba 8-)
Nothing wrong with Agnetha, Benny, Bjorn and Anni-Frid they are some of the most successful musicians and singers in history.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:44 am

Certainly Abba were great musicians and massively popular. Popularity does not ensure I will like their music or even not find it really annoying.

Back in the day I might have been happy to just ignore them as just part of the endless torrent of trivial pop music. But maybe they were too good. They created a string of catchy tunes that get stuck in your mind and play around and around, which might be nice if you like the tunes, other wise its annoying.

To compound that they are massively popular, which means we end up hearing the same old songs over and over. On the radio, in the pubs, bars and restaurants, in elevators...arrghhh make it stop!

Oddly, I don't know anyone who ever bought an ABBA record. Back in the day of buying vinyl I knew people with huge collections. I started to wonder how ABBA made so much money when nobody buys their records. Or did those people hide their ABBA disks when friends visited for fear of embarrassment :)
Last edited by Heater on Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:11 am

Heater wrote:Certainly Abba were great musicians and massively popular. Popularity dose not ensure I will like their music or even not find it really annoying.

Back in the day I might have been happy to just ignore them as just part of the endless torrent of trivial pop music. But maybe they were too good. They created a string of catchy tunes that get stuck in your mind and play around and around, which might be nice if you like the tunes, other wise its annoying.

To compound that they are massively popular, which means we end up hearing the same old songs over and over. On the radio, in the pubs, bars and restaurants, in elevators...arrghhh make it stop!

Oddly, I don't know anyone who ever bought an ABBA record. Back in the day of buying vinyl I knew people with huge collections. I started to wonder how ABBA made so much money when nobody buys their records. Or did those people hide their ABBA disks when friends visited for fear of embarrassment :)
My other half saw Abba live.

But this is off topic, so please keep to the OP.
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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:11 pm

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned to "upgrade" the Raspbian Jessie. Does anyone know why? e.g why is Jessie an upgrade?

If Jessie is an upgrade, then why even produce Wheezy? Are they based on different Linux distros?


**** I have to agree Abba were the best group ever!

thanks

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:17 pm

Nemo1966 wrote:If Jessie is an upgrade, then why even produce Wheezy? Are they based on different Linux distros?
They're both based on Debian. Wheezy is the 'old stable' release, Jessie the current stable (https://www.debian.org/releases/).
Wheezy is not 'produced' anymore, the last image dates from may 2015 (see https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspbian/) and it will only get security updates.

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:20 pm

Perfect - thank you

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:56 pm

Heater wrote:To compound that they are massively popular, which means we end up hearing the same old songs over and over. On the radio, in the pubs, bars and restaurants, in elevators...arrghhh make it stop!

Oddly, I don't know anyone who ever bought an ABBA record.
Just crank out a track or two of Abacab to clear your head, sure it's a sell out from the days of Selling England By The Pound and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway but at least it doesn't include, "You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life. See that girl, watch that scene, digging the Dancing Queen."

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Re: Pi2 is flaky and keeps crashing

Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:06 pm

stderr,

Never heard of that. Despite being somewhat into Selling England By The Pound and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Have to check it out.

It has happened that, even after four decades, to clear up the symptoms of ABBA infection, it' like herpes it never goes away, I have to fire up the Sex Pistols. "God Save the Queen" to displace that "dancing queen" as it were.

If it's not so bad, a dose of Bach's Toccata and Fugues usually does the trick.

For serious cases I need Daevid Allen or Hawkwind.

As my good friend said a few years back "Music...mostly annoying". And the guy loves music.
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