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Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:49 pm
by Heater
Somebody said "Stack'm high sell'm cheap".

Only missing part in the Zero story so far is "Stack'm high".

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:55 pm
by karrika
It is obvious why PiZero gets so much interest.

Today computers are complicated. Many hobbyists like me program for old computers like Atari Lynx or Commodore 64 because things were so simple in the old days. It is relaxing. A hobby.

The Raspberry Pi has brought the simplicity back. You have GPIO pins, modular simple add on HATs, python, scratch. And now an even simpler PiZero.

It is a nice feeling of being able to control a computer. Most people today have the feeling that they are being controlled by computers instead.

I hope that PiZeros are here to stay.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:08 pm
by liz
jamesh wrote:As I have said before, I think the Zero will always be made is low quantities, simply because there is little or no profit to be made on them. No profit = No Foundation.
Not actually the case (although the profit we make is very small) - we're making them as fast as we can. Demand has been...well, extraordinary (especially since so many people want to buy in large multiples). So it's taking some time for them to get through to channel, and for the foreseeable we're not going to be permitting bulk sales, so more individuals can get their hands on them. But they ARE constantly on the line, and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:20 pm
by jamesh
liz wrote:
jamesh wrote:As I have said before, I think the Zero will always be made is low quantities, simply because there is little or no profit to be made on them. No profit = No Foundation.
Not actually the case (although the profit we make is very small) - we're making them as fast as we can. Demand has been...well, extraordinary (especially since so many people want to buy in large multiples). So it's taking some time for them to get through to channel, and for the foreseeable we're not going to be permitting bulk sales, so more individuals can get their hands on them. But they ARE constantly on the line, and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.
Yah see! Told you it was my own thoughts! Thanks for the clarification Liz.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:33 pm
by jamesh
karrika wrote:It is obvious why PiZero gets so much interest.

Today computers are complicated. Many hobbyists like me program for old computers like Atari Lynx or Commodore 64 because things were so simple in the old days. It is relaxing. A hobby.

The Raspberry Pi has brought the simplicity back. You have GPIO pins, modular simple add on HATs, python, scratch. And now an even simpler PiZero.

It is a nice feeling of being able to control a computer. Most people today have the feeling that they are being controlled by computers instead.

I hope that PiZeros are here to stay.
I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device, with less effort to get it going, the pi2. But my use case is probably different from all the makers who want to put them in robots etc, and that said, the Zero certainly has found a market! Of course they are here to stay! As are all the others ones! The more Pi models the better, since they are all compatible, you get a range of devices to cover a whole plethora of different use cases, can move code from one to another to pick the best model for the job. And best of all, they are al incredible cheap.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:53 pm
by W. H. Heydt
liz wrote:
jamesh wrote:As I have said before, I think the Zero will always be made is low quantities, simply because there is little or no profit to be made on them. No profit = No Foundation.
Not actually the case (although the profit we make is very small) - we're making them as fast as we can. Demand has been...well, extraordinary (especially since so many people want to buy in large multiples). So it's taking some time for them to get through to channel, and for the foreseeable we're not going to be permitting bulk sales, so more individuals can get their hands on them. But they ARE constantly on the line, and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.
Thank you, Liz. Much appreciated comment.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:02 pm
by Heater
jamesh,
I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device,

I was surprised as well.

But what I'm reading here an elsewhere is that there is a bazillion people creating all kind of embedded gizmos. Commercial an otherwise. They are tired of expensive dev boards and proprietary/complex IDEs. All they want is a cheap, dinky little thing to get the job done. Using the tools they are familiar with.

This market must be huge.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:08 pm
by W. H. Heydt
jamesh wrote:
karrika wrote:It is obvious why PiZero gets so much interest.

Today computers are complicated. Many hobbyists like me program for old computers like Atari Lynx or Commodore 64 because things were so simple in the old days. It is relaxing. A hobby.

The Raspberry Pi has brought the simplicity back. You have GPIO pins, modular simple add on HATs, python, scratch. And now an even simpler PiZero.

It is a nice feeling of being able to control a computer. Most people today have the feeling that they are being controlled by computers instead.

I hope that PiZeros are here to stay.
I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device, with less effort to get it going, the pi2. But my use case is probably different from all the makers who want to put them in robots etc, and that said, the Zero certainly has found a market! Of course they are here to stay! As are all the others ones! The more Pi models the better, since they are all compatible, you get a range of devices to cover a whole plethora of different use cases, can move code from one to another to pick the best model for the job. And best of all, they are al incredible cheap.
Agreed...especially about the demand being strange, though one consideration there is: How many collectors are there out in the community who want at least one of every Pi model they can get? That alone could drive a demand for hundreds of thousands to--possibly--low millions.

What I think the real use is for things like robotics, at least so long as an RPF camera isn't part of the system. But how many people are deeply enough into robots to worry about the difference among the various models of Pi? I have identified five uses so far that I want to put a Pi0 to, but two of those are a partitioned set of (open box, pull out board) "This is a Pi Zero." Another one, people laughed at me about (NTP server for isolated local network). A 4th is to run it as a demo at Jams. It is only the 5th one that might be something most people might recognize as a "project" and that is to make an electronic name badge.

I've absolutely no idea what someone might want 10, 20 or more for as an individual (schools...whole different case).

On the actual topic, there is a retail source not overly far from me that is taking orders and will ship when they get boards. I placed an order around the beginning of December and they were saying "availability in January". They are now saying "availability in February". I don't know if they expect to ship the earlier orders in January or if the supply has moved later. I should know in the next few weeks. So...Pi Zero Availability? Reply hazy. Ask again later.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:10 am
by liz
Hal (and everybody else) - don't order from RS or Farnell or affiliates: the main stockists in the US are Adafruit and Microcenter (which may be what's causing some of the confusion). The margins we wanted partners to stick to are very low, and our usual distributors didn't fancy it (although other retailers are reporting some very good figures - pays to stick your neck out in this business).

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:37 am
by W. H. Heydt
liz wrote:Hal (and everybody else) - don't order from RS or Farnell or affiliates: the main stockists in the US are Adafruit and Microcenter (which may be what's causing some of the confusion). The margins we wanted partners to stick to are very low, and our usual distributors didn't fancy it (although other retailers are reporting some very good figures - pays to stick your neck out in this business).
Thank you for *that* information as well.

I do have one order (Pi0+cables) through MCM that was placed very early in the cycle.

My other order is through Ameridroid. I have a "notify me when they're in" request with Adafruit. MicroCenter is pretty useless for me...they are, so far as I can tell, only actually making them available in their stores (though one can make an order for pickup). Problem is...the nearest MicroCenter is about 400 miles away--near Los Angeles. Now if Central Computer were to run the same deal as MicroCenter, it would work for me. There nearest store is in San Francisco, and I go right past (within less than a mile) of their one in Fremont on my way to the Silicon Valley Jams.

On a more general point... Has anyone who has a Pi Zero looked to see where it is made? I understand that manufacturing in China is down, so there are probably some pretty hungry factory managers over there who might be really, really interested in making Pi Zeros, even if the margins are razor thin.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:26 am
by solar3000
liz wrote:Hal (and everybody else) - don't order from RS or Farnell or affiliates: the main stockists in the US are Adafruit and Microcenter (which may be what's causing some of the confusion). The margins we wanted partners to stick to are very low, and our usual distributors didn't fancy it (although other retailers are reporting some very good figures - pays to stick your neck out in this business).

Alright Micro Center!
Did I mention Micro Center?

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:05 am
by BMS Doug
liz wrote:We're making them as fast as we can. Demand has been...well, extraordinary (especially since so many people want to buy in large multiples). So it's taking some time for them to get through to channel, and for the foreseeable we're not going to be permitting bulk sales, so more individuals can get their hands on them. But they ARE constantly on the line, and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.
Thanks Liz, that's the news we all wanted to hear.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:16 am
by Jim Manley
liz wrote:
jamesh wrote:As I have said before, I think the Zero will always be made is low quantities, simply because there is little or no profit to be made on them. No profit = No Foundation.
Not actually the case (although the profit we make is very small) - we're making them as fast as we can. Demand has been...well, extraordinary (especially since so many people want to buy in large multiples). So it's taking some time for them to get through to channel, and for the foreseeable we're not going to be permitting bulk sales, so more individuals can get their hands on them. But they ARE constantly on the line, and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.
Thanks, Liz - I KNEW it! I realize you can't comment on whether there's an impact of Zeroes in cannibalizing sales of their bigger siblings, but that will someday be a great tidbit to hear over the finest in El Torritos or other local San Mateo cuisine ;) .

As Liz, Eben, Hal, ukscone, and others know, I've been fighting the good fight in vertical battles (uphill battles are for pikers ;) ) against every form of bureaucrat to get Pii into students' hands (of all ages), whether it's via formal classroom curricula, Jams, Maker events, standing on street corners in a trenchcoat muttering, "Hey, kid, you wanna try some Pi?" (now _there's_ a visual for you! :lol: ), and much, much worse. "No one expects the Piish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is hook and crook, crook and hook; two chief weapons, hook, crook, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: hook, crook, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! Um, I'll come in again ... "

It's going to take until the Fall to budget the kind of money needed to get a Zero into the hands of even a fraction of the kids who deserve one in our 68,000+ student school district - it's already too late for this year for more than onesie-twosie purchases, and those have to come out of us eductors' wallets because even a $5.00 purchase takes months to get the purchasing paperwork done. I need to get the Zero in front of fellow computing, STEM, and core teachers, IT techs and managers, educational technology gurus (the folks who coordinate curricula integration with hardware/software elements and teacher tech training), school and district administrators and boards, politicians, grant providers, and a cast of tens of thousands more.

All of this has to be done while Windows-coveting vendors are doing their damnedest to outmaneuver our relatively puny efforts, along with their supporting bureaucrats who benefit by receiving at least fancy computing toys for endless "evaluation", if not outright financial kickbacks. Can you imagine what this process is like for an educator in districts the sizes of those in New York, LA, London, Paris, etc.? No, I didn't think so, but we have to start somewhere. Perhaps now you can begin to understand why I'm not always the happiest camper in the park.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:02 am
by Burngate
liz wrote:... and you WILL see numbers in stores tick up as the demand gets to normal levels.
I have* to ask: what is "normal"?

There not having been anything like the Zero, before, it seems to me that "normal" is something like an extreme Easter - a movable feast that sometimes coincides with Christmas.


* maybe not "have", more like "want"

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:10 am
by liz
On a more general point... Has anyone who has a Pi Zero looked to see where it is made? I understand that manufacturing in China is down, so there are probably some pretty hungry factory managers over there who might be really, really interested in making Pi Zeros, even if the margins are razor thin.
Wales. They're all being made in Pencoed. (Again, we've been pleased to find that the Sony factory we use was more than able to match prices we got from overseas. Really can't overstate how good the Sony folks are.)

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:08 pm
by davidcoton
Jim Manley wrote: All of this has to be done while Windows-coveting vendors are doing their damnedest to outmaneuver our relatively puny efforts, along with their supporting bureaucrats who benefit by receiving at least fancy computing toys for endless "evaluation", if not outright financial kickbacks. Can you imagine what this process is like for an educator in districts the sizes of those in New York, LA, London, Paris, etc.? No, I didn't think so, but we have to start somewhere. Perhaps now you can begin to understand why I'm not always the happiest camper in the park.
Yes, I can imagine. In the early eighties, I was involved in getting the London school authorities to approve the purchase of cheap, easy, convenient BBC computers -- against a much more expensive brand they preferred, for some unknown reason. At one point an officer from the authority told a meeting called by a head teacher that the BBC couldn't do program overlays, so would never run large programs like their preferred Brand R. I promptly blew him out of the water with a sufficiently large bluff about my programming abilities, and we never again had issues about selling BBC micros to central London state schools.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:14 pm
by blc
liz wrote:
On a more general point... Has anyone who has a Pi Zero looked to see where it is made? I understand that manufacturing in China is down, so there are probably some pretty hungry factory managers over there who might be really, really interested in making Pi Zeros, even if the margins are razor thin.
Wales. They're all being made in Pencoed. (Again, we've been pleased to find that the Sony factory we use was more than able to match prices we got from overseas. Really can't overstate how good the Sony folks are.)
Which is absolutely fantastic. I still find it hard to wrap my head around this: the little Sony factory which is (more or less) up the road from me is the main production facility for all Raspberry Pi models. In fact, better than that, production was moved from China to that little factory up the road; usually things go out to China because it's cheaper.

It's a major feather in their cap if you ask me; they'd be utterly mad to lose out on the Raspberry Pi business.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:27 pm
by hippy
jamesh wrote:I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device, with less effort to get it going, the pi2.
£4 versus £28; that's more than a few quid, even when interface cables and hubs are included. It isn't as good or as powerful as the Pi 2 but it is excellent as a cheaper A+ or B+ alternative.

The low cost makes the Zero almost disposable, which opens the door to people being willing to risk doing more with it than a more expensive Pi, especially hardware interfacing and hacking. It's also likely bought as a 'second board' so any loss or damage won't affect their main Pi and its use.

It's also cheap enough for everyone to create a mini-cluster or to just 'double their Pi' for loose change prices.

I think the Foundation have perhaps underestimated the appeal and demand for the Pi Zero as they did when the Pi first launched. I would say there's probably a market for two million out there at present, perhaps more. It could again take a long time for supply to catch up with demand.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:24 pm
by hoopdreams
Some of them back in stock at Pimoroni. You must be fast!

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:38 pm
by jamesh
hippy wrote:
jamesh wrote:I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device, with less effort to get it going, the pi2.
£4 versus £28; that's more than a few quid, even when interface cables and hubs are included. It isn't as good or as powerful as the Pi 2 but it is excellent as a cheaper A+ or B+ alternative.

The low cost makes the Zero almost disposable, which opens the door to people being willing to risk doing more with it than a more expensive Pi, especially hardware interfacing and hacking. It's also likely bought as a 'second board' so any loss or damage won't affect their main Pi and its use.

It's also cheap enough for everyone to create a mini-cluster or to just 'double their Pi' for loose change prices.

I think the Foundation have perhaps underestimated the appeal and demand for the Pi Zero as they did when the Pi first launched. I would say there's probably a market for two million out there at present, perhaps more. It could again take a long time for supply to catch up with demand.
All good points, but the B2 is 6 times (or more with NEON) faster, has twice the RAM, has ethernet, 4 USB's, attached GPIO, CSI, DSI. FOr an extra $24

Whichever way you look at it, the Pi2B is really cheap for the performance, and the Zero is really cheap for the performance.

Just 4 years ago, the Pi revolutionised cost/performance with the incredibly cheap Pi1. And it's still incredibly cheap!

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:41 pm
by RaTTuS

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:47 pm
by BMS Doug
jamesh wrote:
hippy wrote:
jamesh wrote:I'm finding the high demand quite strange TBH, for only a few extra £ you get a much more powerful device, with less effort to get it going, the pi2.
£4 versus £28; that's more than a few quid, even when interface cables and hubs are included. It isn't as good or as powerful as the Pi 2 but it is excellent as a cheaper A+ or B+ alternative.

The low cost makes the Zero almost disposable, which opens the door to people being willing to risk doing more with it than a more expensive Pi, especially hardware interfacing and hacking. It's also likely bought as a 'second board' so any loss or damage won't affect their main Pi and its use.

It's also cheap enough for everyone to create a mini-cluster or to just 'double their Pi' for loose change prices.

I think the Foundation have perhaps underestimated the appeal and demand for the Pi Zero as they did when the Pi first launched. I would say there's probably a market for two million out there at present, perhaps more. It could again take a long time for supply to catch up with demand.
All good points, but the B2 is 6 times (or more with NEON) faster, has twice the RAM, has ethernet, 4 USB's, attached GPIO, CSI, DSI. FOr an extra $24

Whichever way you look at it, the Pi2B is really cheap for the performance, and the Zero is really cheap for the performance.

Just 4 years ago, the Pi revolutionised cost/performance with the incredibly cheap Pi1. And it's still incredibly cheap!
Absolutely, and I have two more Pi2B's on order (giving me three in total) I'll be able to dedicate one Pi2B to each of my children and still have one for myself.
As they get older they will probably become more interested in physical computing, Having Pi0's for them to play with will mean that the 2's can be the development platform and the 0's can be deployed wherever they want (burnt out the GPIO? bad girl, that's £4 you cost us).

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:48 pm
by Pithagoros
£4 zeros gone already, but still plenty at £8 or above with bundles.


Edit: Somebody's shopping basket didn't check out and one came back to stock. [briefly]

Interesting how the £4 zeros disappear very quickly, but the bundles, even the cheaper bundles are still hanging around. Perhaps zeros are being bought by people that already have one and have the adapters.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:55 pm
by karrika
liz wrote:They're all being made in Pencoed. (Again, we've been pleased to find that the Sony factory we use was more than able to match prices we got from overseas. Really can't overstate how good the Sony folks are.)
+1

This is something that makes me very happy. During the years I have seen all manufacturing drift abroad. The problem is that also the skill to manufacture and develop things drifts away at the same time.

The assembly plants I used to work with drifted abroad with Nokia years ago.

Re: Pi Zero Availability

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:07 pm
by piglet
liz wrote:
Really can't overstate how good the Sony folks are.)
It's a shame they can't do better with their TV software :(.

Ah well. I've given up waiting for the £4 availabilty. £10.50 it is for one with cables I don't need or want.