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mahjongg
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:25 pm

mikemoy wrote: @ mahjongg, you said "Also coming to the forum is the wrong place to get this information, and borders on trolling."

Where the heck else is someone going to ask the question at ? The RPF perhaps ? I dont know if you have ever actually tried doing that. We did years ago with the CM, 4 engineers from out firm tried that several times. We never got one response from them. So we used another manuf. for that project. Here I am again asking something simple and getting the run around.
Why in gods name do you expect any forum member to have answers to such questions, they can offer only anecdotical answers, certainly not official ones, and you know that very well, you know you should go to the manufacturer, which is Element 14, not to the RPF either.
So yes, you behavior IS trolling.

Heater
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:48 pm

mikemoy,
Is there a temp spec for the Pi Zero somewhere ? I have not been able to find anything concerning this.
Yes:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/# ... emperature

and

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/penguin-lifelines

Perhaps not on a nice "spec" looking PDF as you may be used to but it is what it is and tells it straight for all to see.

In the absence of any different information I would naturally assume that FAQ statement applies Pi variants including the Zero and CM.

There is no "run around". Everything is plain as day.

If you want an ARM board supplier to commit to a wider temp spec. then there are many willing to do so. At additional cost of course.

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daveake
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:27 am

ame wrote:
mikemoy wrote:For someone with over 20 years of embedded engineering experience I am stunned that you are considering building a product based on the Zero. Until last week it didn't exist. Up to now there is very little accumulated experience with it. Oh, and nobody sells them! They are out of stock everywhere.

The right answer for you is the Compute Module. The Zero might be viable in 6 months.
Or it might be a different Zero. My understanding is that whilst certain things are fixed on the other Pis (form factor, location of sockets) and thus will not change in new revisions, there is no such guarantee with the Zero. So in 6 months or whatever a new revision might have all the sockets moved around or the board might be larger or smaller.

Dave

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:46 am

daveake wrote:
ame wrote:
mikemoy wrote:For someone with over 20 years of embedded engineering experience I am stunned that you are considering building a product based on the Zero. Until last week it didn't exist. Up to now there is very little accumulated experience with it. Oh, and nobody sells them! They are out of stock everywhere.

The right answer for you is the Compute Module. The Zero might be viable in 6 months.
Or it might be a different Zero. My understanding is that whilst certain things are fixed on the other Pis (form factor, location of sockets) and thus will not change in new revisions, there is no such guarantee with the Zero. So in 6 months or whatever a new revision might have all the sockets moved around or the board might be larger or smaller.

Dave
I agree with Dave, and also, I suspect the Zero won't be made in high enough quantities to satisfy embedded designs. The reason I think that is that there is very little profit to be made on them compared with other models, and the Foundation cannot survive on the levels of profit it provides.
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epeli
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:50 pm

mikemoy wrote:
rpdom wrote:
mikemoy wrote:I mean the part with the narrowest range.
I.E. -20 to +85 is a narrower range than -40 to +85.
But what if one part had -20 to +85 and another had -10 to +120? Then -10 would be the minimum and +85 the maximum. Not determined by the range of a single part.
I get what your saying, however I pretty sure there are no parts on there rated for > +85. In knowing this my question is still valid.
Temp ratings come in classes, typically Commercial, Industrial, automotive. So It would be very odd to find a part with -10.
I am only interested in the cold side.
I have Raspberry Pi B+ in cold cottage measuring the temperature of an underground cellar. There is a water pump and other sensitive stuff.

Just now temperature readings are: Maakellari = 3.4 laite = -9.2
i.e cellar 3.4 Celcius and the device -9.2 Celcius (thus far below zero centigrade).
The outside temperature in the middle Finland is -27 Celcius. I have modem and Raspberry in a insulation box having 30 - 40 W heating power.

I am quite satified if Raspberry Pi will survive through this cold season.

Regards /Epeli

epeli
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:06 am

We have at this morning the peak ambient temperature- outside -31 Celcius.
Modem and Raspberry Pi are still working at -13.1 Celsius!
The cellar has stable plus 3.4.

Updating to this morning (Jan 8,2016) - the peak temperature of Raspberry Pi observed was minus 14.1 Celcius (-14.1 C).
I doubt would it start from so cold. Now the coldest season is weakening. I am not expecting more peak values.

Epeli
Last edited by epeli on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jim Manley
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:49 am

Mike - I'm a mechanical/electrical/software engineer with 39 years of experience, and you apparently have missed the raison d'être of the Pi: delivering as much computing power at as low a cost as possible for educational purposes, period. Any other successful uses are purely coincidental and a happy byproduct of the Foundation's efforts. You're attempting to take advantage of its low cost and yet demanding personalized service you're not willing to pay for, which you might recognize as violating the laws of thermodynamics, i.e., not only is there no free lunch, but you can't break even in The Big Scheme of Things. What I would suggest is that you try to find out who is already using the Zero successfully in industrial environments ... oh, wait, no one is because it's only been available in extremely limited quantities (much of them glued to the cover of a hobbyist/educational magazine) for a grand total of six weeks.

In the spirit of the Foundation's official _charitable_educational_ mission, what I would suggest is that you work with other industrial developers to verify the Zero's actual performance for the attributes you're interested in, and then donate the results to the public domain. Participants can share in the cost (some, if not all, might even be able to perform various parts of the testing in-house) and then write it off as a charitable donation if there's an advantage to doing that vs. writing it off as a business expense. The reason you might want to do that is that you can get a lot of positive PR value by making it clear that you're supporting the Foundation's educational efforts (they really need to run a "Pi Inside" logo contest) by helping expand the market for its tools (they're _not_ products as they're a non-profit) and thereby further reducing per-unit cost across a larger number of units produced and sold.

If you're not already aware, most of what has made the Pi successful has been on the backs of volunteers who also happen to be world-class experts in their domains who make plenty of money in their day jobs. Even the pioneer of the Pi concept, Eben Upton, is a volunteer with a very difficult and demanding day job as software architect for Broadcom's GPU technologies. You might want to keep that in mind before playing bull-in-the-China-shop demanding answers to questions no one may be getting paid to determine. This is coming from someone who's occasionally succumbed to that mode, and who knows how to do your kind of job, so I feel your pain.

Do not underestimate the power of the Pi brand - what the Foundation has done on a shoestring budget is nothing short of amazing, and they're continuing to rewrite the "rules" for SBCs. The fact that it's benefitting not only schoolchildren, but adults who need to transition to new careers is to be applauded as loudly and widely as possible. Perhaps your organization could be a charter member of a Pi Industrial Association that performs/supports other services beyond the physical performance testing/verification function.
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hippy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:05 am

Jim Manley wrote:Even the pioneer of the Pi concept, Eben Upton, is a volunteer with a very difficult and demanding day job as software architect for Broadcom's GPU technologies.
Are you sure about that? I don't know what his relationship is with Broadcom these days but he's CEO and a director of Raspberry Pi (Trading) Limited and probably handsomely paid for that.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:10 am

hippy wrote:
Jim Manley wrote:Even the pioneer of the Pi concept, Eben Upton, is a volunteer with a very difficult and demanding day job as software architect for Broadcom's GPU technologies.
Are you sure about that? I don't know what his relationship is with Broadcom these days but he's CEO and a director of Raspberry Pi (Trading) Limited and probably handsomely paid for that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Upton

Eben Christopher Upton (born 5 April 1978) is a Technical Director and ASIC architect for Broadcom. He is also a founder and former trustee of the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and now CEO[4] of Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd., the DVD and Blu-ray license key vendor.[5] He is also responsible for the overall software and hardware architecture of the Raspberry Pi device.


JM usual Poppycock & Balderdash :shock:
Retired disgracefully.....

hippy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:32 am

mahjongg wrote:Why in gods name do you expect any forum member to have answers to such questions, they can offer only anecdotical answers, certainly not official ones, and you know that very well, you know you should go to the manufacturer, which is Element 14, not to the RPF either.
So yes, you behavior IS trolling.
Are you sure Element 14 are the manufacturers of the Pi Zero? I got the impression that they were not, however I could be wrong.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask the Foundation if they have temperature specs for a product which is branded with the Raspberry Pi name and logo and sold as their product. Nor does it seem unreasonable to ask if anyone in the community knows. I really don't see how asking for temperature specs can be trolling; it appears to be a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

On the other hand I can accept that there is no official temperature rating and the best there is are details for other boards and components used. It was, after all, not a product designed for industrial use or as a sub-component of commercial systems.

santoshzoi
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:08 am

mikemoy wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:46 pm
MarkTF wrote:I'm curious what the target environment is for this application.

It is not uncommon in high-reliability applications to perform extensive environmental qualification testing of a system or system component in order to validate performance well beyond the manufacturer's ratings. Obviously this adds considerable cost to the project which may or may not make sense for a particular application. That hinges on the cost of alternative approaches and the consequences of a failure in the fielded environment.
Everything we make is for industrial applications.

Going from commercial to industrial temp is really not that much more expensive.
On average most IC's are typically a few cents more.

Yes, every product we design we take a batch of 10 and send them to a testing lab which does environmental testing.
Hot/Cold, Humidity, vibration & shock. Testing is performed 2 times, once with unit powered and the second with it off then powered back on after that specific test.
Is it possible to get the test result or details of thermal analysis data or the datasheet showing the components taking part in the thermal exchange, because we need to do thermal analysis of our system which includes the raspberry pi 0 and maintain it in a certain temperature.

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