mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:15 pm

I mean the part with the narrowest range.
I.E. -20 to +85 is a narrower range than -40 to +85.

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rpdom
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:47 pm

mikemoy wrote:I mean the part with the narrowest range.
I.E. -20 to +85 is a narrower range than -40 to +85.
But what if one part had -20 to +85 and another had -10 to +120? Then -10 would be the minimum and +85 the maximum. Not determined by the range of a single part.

mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:59 pm

rpdom wrote:
mikemoy wrote:I mean the part with the narrowest range.
I.E. -20 to +85 is a narrower range than -40 to +85.
But what if one part had -20 to +85 and another had -10 to +120? Then -10 would be the minimum and +85 the maximum. Not determined by the range of a single part.
I get what your saying, however I pretty sure there are no parts on there rated for > +85. In knowing this my question is still valid.
Temp ratings come in classes, typically Commercial, Industrial, automotive. So It would be very odd to find a part with -10.
I am only interested in the cold side.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:27 pm

Whilst officially it's lower limit is -40 (AFAIK) it may be that some of the high altitude balloon guys or penguin monitor guys may have seen temperatures lower than that in real life. As with anything built in to a product, you'll need to test in an environmental chamber as combinations of components may change things.
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mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:40 pm

jamesh wrote:Whilst officially it's lower limit is -40 (AFAIK) it may be that some of the high altitude balloon guys or penguin monitor guys may have seen temperatures lower than that in real life. As with anything built in to a product, you'll need to test in an environmental chamber as combinations of components may change things.
I am sure many have seen temperatures lower than this. Like I mentioned before, if it's already running you can typically bring the temp lower than spec'd. because it is generating heat while running.

Guys, I am seeking a very simple answer. The question is: What part on the Zero has the narrowest range.

gregeric
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:45 pm

We're going round in circles here... given that you are only interested in the "cold side", the minimum temperature that the complete entity that the Pi is can operate at, then surely you need to know what single component has the highest specified minimum operating temp, not range. As JamesH says, you'd be better off sucking it and seeing.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:06 pm

Believe me I am dumb founded how this thread has gotten this long over a very simple question from my original post.

OK, I will ask it your way. What part on the Zero has the highest specified minimum operating temp ?

Concerning: "As JamesH says, you'd be better off sucking it and seeing"

Now why in the world would I pay a testing lab $2800- $3200 to test that for me if I am not sure of the spec?
I am not some hobbyist tinkering around. I am a professional looking to use it in a product.
I cannot go by things like "we think", or "its been used here". I need hard numbers that are very simply answered by the people who make it. Not to mention it should have been documented from day one.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:25 pm

The Pi boards as a whole have never been tested for temperature range - its not really necessary for an educational device. We can only go by what the chip/components spec says, presuming the PCB itself is safe at the range given by the intersection of the component ranges. As above, ISTR the 2835 is -40 to 85 (this need to be double checked though, googling this forum should help), other components specs have been listed on the forum before and I don't know them off hand.

As for testing, you will need to get CE or FCC EMC testing done on a product (although that depends on the product destination I suspect) anyway, that's going to cost more than an environmental test.
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:33 pm

Mine has switching reg TDA 2306KE, Elpida RAM B4432BBPA-10-F 15380R03200, AEL 19.2MHz xtal, unmarked SMD inductors, caps n resistors, one LED, plus various bits n bobs for HDMI if that's required in your product. Maybe you can track down datasheets for those.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:39 pm

gregeric wrote:Mine has switching reg TDA 2306KE, Elpida RAM B4432BBPA-10-F 15380R03200, AEL 19.2MHz xtal, unmarked SMD inductors, caps n resistors, one LED, plus various bits n bobs for HDMI if that's required in your product. Maybe you can track down datasheets for those.
Thank you, yes I can of course track those down, but that leaves the caps unknown. It would be much better for them to simply publish the range. This is what manufactures do, its the norm for them to do it.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:50 pm

I guess only someone in the Sony factory in Wales would know the source of all components. And what if they switch from brand X to brand Y for cost saving purposes over time?

You are trying to take advantage of a $4 bare-bones board designed to put computing power into as many hands & places as possible, other than inside a deep freezer. Yet some risk it and have had success HAB etc.

Perhaps you should be using something else, probably far more expensive, which has been designed with robustness in hostile environments in mind?

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:52 pm

In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:57 pm

ISEE maket the very nice IGEP board. Ti ARM SoC plus flash boot storage plus SD plus WIFI plus RS232/485 plus USB etc.

IGEP is speced down to -40C. Sounds more like what you need.

About 150 pounds last I checked.

mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:13 pm

Heater wrote:In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.
I never said the temp specs for every part, that would be crazy.
If a company makes a module then they provide a spec of the module as a whole.
Here is an example:
http://www.acmesystems.it/arietta#buy_arietta


Guys, with respect I give up on this thread.

Until RPI themselves say something like:
Operating range: x - x
Storage range x - x

Then I am not interested in assumptions.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:16 pm

mikemoy wrote:
Heater wrote:In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.
I never said the temp specs for every part, that would be crazy.
If a company makes a module then they provide a spec of the module as a whole.
Here is an example:
http://www.acmesystems.it/arietta#buy_arietta


Guys, with respect I give up on this thread.

Until RPI themselves say something like:
Operating range: x - x
Storage range x - x

Then I am not interested in assumptions.
well they probably won't because it's
1) an educational thing
so work space temps are assumed
anything else is additional
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mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:21 pm

Now that is the best answer i have heard through all of this. Thank you!

I can accept that 100%.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:42 pm

perhaps an answer will come when the FAQ is updated, but from experience I can say that this could take months, even a year.
Its not high in the RPF's list of things to do to provide information for industrial uses for the zero, the compute module is for that market, and AFAIK temperature ranges for the CM are published, or at least available.
Obviously you want to get it all, using a mass market device created for school children, and information about industrial use, sorry but no!
With a high probability I can guesstimate that the temperature range listed in the FAQ is the same for the zero, but guarantees will not be given!

Also coming to the forum is the wrong place to get this information, and borders on trolling.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:54 pm

Heater wrote:In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.
Mikemoy's point, as I understand it, is that the RPi Foundation hasn't specified environmental specs for the board. It wouldn't be that hard for someone to look at the bill of materials for the assembly and identify the limiting components.

A plausible reason the Foundation might not want to do this is that they may want the flexibility to change component suppliers based on availability and pricing which might require revisiting this with every lot. This level of configuration management would be an additional expense which is at odds with their primary objective of supplying an educational product at minimal expense. There is probably some level of legal exposure to which they'd be exposed as well.

That said, the compute module is intended to be used by original equipment manufacturers, and it would be a little troubling that some threshold for component environmental specifications weren't stated (to the best of my knowledge) for that particular product. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... gnguide.md

(Updated to reflect CM usage guide)

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:59 pm

For the CM module the temperature range is stated in its design guide, here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... gnguide.md

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:07 pm

The important parts are still the same. The voltage regulator is the same (IIRC) as the Pi1 + and Pi2 models. yaaa. Yes. I think so
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mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:10 pm

MarkTF wrote:
Heater wrote:In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.
Mikemoy's point, as I understand it, is that the RPi Foundation hasn't specified environmental specs for the board. It wouldn't be that hard for someone to look at the bill of materials for the assembly and identify the limiting components.

A plausible reason the Foundation might not want to do this is that they may want the flexibility to change component suppliers based on availability and pricing which might require revisiting this with every lot. This level of configuration management would be an additional expense which is at odds with their primary objective of supplying an educational product at minimal expense. There is probably some level of legal exposure to which they'd be exposed as well.

That said, the compute module is intended to be used by original equipment manufacturers, and it would be a little troubling that some threshold for component environmental specifications weren't stated (to the best of my knowledge) for that particular product. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... gnguide.md

(Updated to reflect CM usage guide)
See. another good answer. I am just looking for something from RPF stating something.


@ mahjongg, you said "Also coming to the forum is the wrong place to get this information, and borders on trolling."

Where the heck else is someone going to ask the question at ? The RPF perhaps ? I dont know if you have ever actually tried doing that. We did years ago with the CM, 4 engineers from out firm tried that several times. We never got one response from them. So we used another manuf. for that project. Here I am again asking something simple and getting the run around.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:43 pm

jamesh wrote:Whilst officially it's lower limit is -40 (AFAIK) it may be that some of the high altitude balloon guys or penguin monitor guys may have seen temperatures lower than that in real life. As with anything built in to a product, you'll need to test in an environmental chamber as combinations of components may change things.
Ambient temperatures can get down to -60C or so during a weather balloon flight, but inside the payload (especially with a Pi etc. generating nearly 1W) it's a lot warmer; it's rare to see much below zero inside a Pi payload.

I have had a couple of flights where there's been almost zero insulation, and the Pi would then have got a lot colder, but I don't have measurements. -40C is likely as the Pi CPU tends to run about 20 above ambient.

Dave

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:41 pm

daveake wrote:I have had a couple of flights where there's been almost zero insulation, and the Pi would then have got a lot colder, but I don't have measurements. -40C is likely as the Pi CPU tends to run about 20 above ambient.
Presumably convection wouldn't work so well in the thinner outer atmosphere, so might it have run even warmer than 20 above ambient?

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:49 pm

mikemoy wrote:
MarkTF wrote:
Heater wrote:In my experience manufacturers specify operating and storage temp specs for their devices. Take it or leave it. I have never seen a board manufacurer publish a spec that lists all the temp specs of all the components on their board. Often you are lucky to even find out what iz on the board.

The raspi is inline with normal practice here.
Mikemoy's point, as I understand it, is that the RPi Foundation hasn't specified environmental specs for the board. It wouldn't be that hard for someone to look at the bill of materials for the assembly and identify the limiting components.

A plausible reason the Foundation might not want to do this is that they may want the flexibility to change component suppliers based on availability and pricing which might require revisiting this with every lot. This level of configuration management would be an additional expense which is at odds with their primary objective of supplying an educational product at minimal expense. There is probably some level of legal exposure to which they'd be exposed as well.

That said, the compute module is intended to be used by original equipment manufacturers, and it would be a little troubling that some threshold for component environmental specifications weren't stated (to the best of my knowledge) for that particular product. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... gnguide.md

(Updated to reflect CM usage guide)
See. another good answer. I am just looking for something from RPF stating something.


@ mahjongg, you said "Also coming to the forum is the wrong place to get this information, and borders on trolling."

Where the heck else is someone going to ask the question at ? The RPF perhaps ? I dont know if you have ever actually tried doing that. We did years ago with the CM, 4 engineers from out firm tried that several times. We never got one response from them. So we used another manuf. for that project. Here I am again asking something simple and getting the run around.
I don't think you are getting the run around - no-one from the Foundation has answered in this thread, its all anecdotal. Point is, it might be a simple question, but it doesn;t have a simple answer. It's the board as a whole that need to be tested not individual parts, and as far as I know, the standard Pi boards (exc. CM) have never been tested from a temperature point of view - it's simply not worth the money. Given the costs of $2-3k* (probably more tbh) to do it, and the profit per board, that's a few thousand board that would need to be sold on the back of environmental specs. Given the boards are not actually designed for industrial usage (although nothing to stop you using them for that, as many many many people do), and the limited recompense, it's not surprising official figures are not available.

* Money better spent on the charitable aims of the foundation in my opinion, like giving away thousand of free Pi's zero's!
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:36 pm

mikemoy wrote: I am not some hobbyist tinkering around. I am a professional looking to use it in a product.
I cannot go by things like "we think", or "its been used here". I need hard numbers that are very simply answered by the people who make it. Not to mention it should have been documented from day one.
I think some hobbyists could probably do a better job of designing a product.

You are the guy who was shrieking on another thread about how the test point on the underside of the board were not documented.

For someone with over 20 years of embedded engineering experience I am stunned that you are considering building a product based on the Zero. Until last week it didn't exist. Up to now there is very little accumulated experience with it. Oh, and nobody sells them! They are out of stock everywhere.

The right answer for you is the Compute Module. The Zero might be viable in 6 months.

To answer your question, assume the Commercial temperature range and design accordingly. Or you could pay Farnell to customise a design just for you and you get to specify the parameters you want.

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