mikemoy
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Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:07 pm

Is there a temp spec for the Pi Zero somewhere ? I have not been able to find anything concerning this.


mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:32 pm

Thanks, but I am looking for a rating specific to the Zero.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:47 pm

mikemoy wrote:Thanks, but I am looking for a rating specific to the Zero.
Why do you think it would be different?

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:00 pm

Different parts, different build. Why would i think it would be the same ?

No engineer would use any part without specific documentation. For instance, say I added a new power supply IC on my device and the manufacturer does not spec a temp rating. Who in their right mind would use it, know what I mean.

I want to use this Zero in a project, but without them specifically saying what the Zero temp rating is, we cannot assume it's the same as some other model.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:14 pm

mikemoy wrote:Different parts, different build. Why would i think it would be the same ?

No engineer would use any part without specific documentation. For instance, say I added a new power supply IC on my device and the manufacturer does not spec a temp rating. Who in their right mind would use it, know what I mean.

I want to use this Zero in a project, but without them specifically saying what the Zero temp rating is, we cannot assume it's the same as some other model.
The important parts are still the same. The voltage regulator is the same (IIRC) as the Pi1 + and Pi2 models. There's no LAN chip, which is the main limitation on the others.

Heater
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:14 pm

You won't find a technical specification documenting the Pi working temperature range.

You will find a blog post on web the site were it is stated the operating temperature range is 0C up to somethig I forget.

It's a blog about guys using the Pi in antarctica to spy on penguin colonies. So it does work well in the cold. But no guarantees.
Last edited by Heater on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:26 pm

mikemoy wrote:Different parts, different build. Why would i think it would be the same ?

No engineer would use any part without specific documentation. For instance, say I added a new power supply IC on my device and the manufacturer does not spec a temp rating. Who in their right mind would use it, know what I mean.

I want to use this Zero in a project, but without them specifically saying what the Zero temp rating is, we cannot assume it's the same as some other model.
If you put an i7 on a mini-ITX board instead of a ATX size board, will it make a difference on the cpu's temp.
same thing... its the very same bcm2835, nothing has changes and it just the size of the board.
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:31 pm

ric96 wrote:
mikemoy wrote:Different parts, different build. Why would i think it would be the same ?

No engineer would use any part without specific documentation. For instance, say I added a new power supply IC on my device and the manufacturer does not spec a temp rating. Who in their right mind would use it, know what I mean.

I want to use this Zero in a project, but without them specifically saying what the Zero temp rating is, we cannot assume it's the same as some other model.
If you put an i7 on a mini-ITX board instead of a ATX size board, will it make a difference on the cpu's temp.
same thing... its the very same bcm2835, nothing has changes and it just the size of the board.
Maybe some are misunderstanding what I am asking. Not sure.
People are saying that the parts are the same, but every part comes in different temp ranges.
Since you can buy the bcm2835 in different temp ranges, we do not know for sure what RPI used, all we know its that its a bcm2835.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:33 pm

AFAIK, you cannot buy the 2835 in different temperature ranges - they are all the same. Same fab, same masks etc.
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mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:36 pm

jamesh wrote:AFAIK, you cannot buy the 2835 in different temperature ranges - they are all the same. Same fab, same masks etc.
Thank you, if this is true then the Zero can ONLY be used for commercial applications. Nothing outdoors.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:39 pm

mikemoy wrote:
jamesh wrote:AFAIK, you cannot buy the 2835 in different temperature ranges - they are all the same. Same fab, same masks etc.
Thank you, if this is true then the Zero can ONLY be used for commercial applications. Nothing outdoors.
Why not, heck people have flown it to the edge of out atmosphere.
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:42 pm

That is true. Unless you want temperature test each of your finished product.

Or you could test far fewer ramdom samples and if they pass spec your product accordingly. You take the risk that they may fail.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:47 pm

ric96 wrote:
mikemoy wrote:
jamesh wrote:AFAIK, you cannot buy the 2835 in different temperature ranges - they are all the same. Same fab, same masks etc.
Thank you, if this is true then the Zero can ONLY be used for commercial applications. Nothing outdoors.
Why not, heck people have flown it to the edge of out atmosphere.
Just because someone has done something does not mean it should be done or make it right.
I am NOT saying the following to say anything bad about anyone, but most people I have seen using the PI are more or less learning to code and or learning hardware. They have not been schooled in electronics to understand things.

You cannot take a 0-70 Deg C. part and put it outside when its say -10 or -20 out and expect it to work. The manufacturer of that part when they give it a temp rating is stating they guarantee this part to work withing this temperature. If you go outside that temperature your are on your own and we will not guarantee it to operate.

So if someone takes a PI, and sticks it outside when the temp falls below 0C, they should not be surprised when its powered up if it fails to start.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:50 pm

mikemoy wrote:
Just because someone has done something does not mean it should be done or make it right.
I am NOT saying the following to say anything bad about anyone, but most people I have seen using the PI are more or less learning to code and or learning hardware. They have not been schooled in electronics to understand things.

You cannot take a 0-70 Deg C. part and put it outside when its say -10 or -20 out and expect it to work. The manufacturer of that part when they give it a temp rating is stating they guarantee this part to work withing this temperature. If you go outside that temperature your are on your own and we will not guarantee it to operate.

So if someone takes a PI, and sticks it outside when the temp falls below 0C, they should not be surprised when its powered up if it fails to start.
True,
but taking risks is how makers enjoy life, the "what if it just works" is what gives us the adrenaline rush. Also parts that are actually that heavily rated and tested are super costly for the exact same reason.
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:03 pm

mikemoy wrote: You cannot take a 0-70 Deg C. part and put it outside when its say -10 or -20 out and expect it to work. The manufacturer of that part when they give it a temp rating is stating they guarantee this part to work within this temperature. If you go outside that temperature your are on your own and we will not guarantee it to operate.

So if someone takes a PI, and sticks it outside when the temp falls below 0C, they should not be surprised when its powered up if it fails to start.
Agreed. The surprise with the previous Pis is that, by and large, they do work in low temperature environments. If a Pi0 temp spec existed, I would expect it to be the standard 0-70 because that is the spec of the components used (though I might be wrong). I suspect much computer equipment might be specified that way, and might fail at below 70C because the performance of an assembly may not be as good as the components (ie, internal heat generation cannot be dissipated when the enclosure is in a 70C environment, so the internal temp exceeds the chip surface temp limit). This particular mechanism is less of a problem for relatively low power devices like the Pi.

How much of the Pi's low temperature (out of spec) ability is due to an enclosure maintaining a higher than ambient internal temp is open to question, though it does seem that the official limit is conservative. That may not help if you are trying to use a Pi in a commercial product, and need to publish a spec for that.
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:04 pm

faq wrote:while the AP is qualified from -40°C to 85°C
AP=Application Processor aka 2835?

If so then then you can check U3 & of course your micro SD card's datasheets to get an idea of the likely operating range for the Zero.

Edited to add: ironically, I forgot memory to be included in the semiconductor specs to be checked.
Last edited by gregeric on Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:13 pm

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:27 pm

ric96 wrote:
mikemoy wrote:
Just because someone has done something does not mean it should be done or make it right.
I am NOT saying the following to say anything bad about anyone, but most people I have seen using the PI are more or less learning to code and or learning hardware. They have not been schooled in electronics to understand things.

You cannot take a 0-70 Deg C. part and put it outside when its say -10 or -20 out and expect it to work. The manufacturer of that part when they give it a temp rating is stating they guarantee this part to work withing this temperature. If you go outside that temperature your are on your own and we will not guarantee it to operate.

So if someone takes a PI, and sticks it outside when the temp falls below 0C, they should not be surprised when its powered up if it fails to start.
True,
but taking risks is how makers enjoy life, the "what if it just works" is what gives us the adrenaline rush.
For sure! I am not downing anyone for doing any of these things. I encourage everyone to learn. The Pi makes this very easy for them to do so. But, you have to keep in mind that I am not looking at the Pi from a hobbyist point of view but rather from a manufacturing one. So this is where the temp reliability comes into place.


Thanks guys I have my answer. cheers

mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:43 pm

You have to be careful when you read that and not take it at face value. This guy does not know how to properly test something at low temperatures. Just because it's posted on the net does not make it accurate.

He says
At its limit the Raspberry Pi continued to function right up to -110oC, and then started working again once it had warmed back up.
Back up to what temp ? he leaves that part out. That's the important piece.

Also, you have to remember that a running IC when brought cold, and tested for it's functionality at low temp is far different than a IC that is not powered, brought cold then started back up. When a IC is running, it is generating heat internally. When you test a IC for cold extremes with it powered on then brought to a low temp it will always exceed the manuf. spec. This is because its generating heat internally.

Now, on the flip side if you power the IC off and bring it below the manuf. temp rating then try to power it on you will see a whole other story.

This is why that article is not true to claim "Raspberry Pi proven to be stable when submerged in liquid nitrogen" , because he did not leave it off, submerge it and then try to power it up. Well, he did, but left out the temp when it started to work again.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:28 pm

I'm curious what the target environment is for this application.

It is not uncommon in high-reliability applications to perform extensive environmental qualification testing of a system or system component in order to validate performance well beyond the manufacturer's ratings. Obviously this adds considerable cost to the project which may or may not make sense for a particular application. That hinges on the cost of alternative approaches and the consequences of a failure in the fielded environment.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:46 pm

MarkTF wrote:I'm curious what the target environment is for this application.

It is not uncommon in high-reliability applications to perform extensive environmental qualification testing of a system or system component in order to validate performance well beyond the manufacturer's ratings. Obviously this adds considerable cost to the project which may or may not make sense for a particular application. That hinges on the cost of alternative approaches and the consequences of a failure in the fielded environment.
Everything we make is for industrial applications.

Going from commercial to industrial temp is really not that much more expensive.
On average most IC's are typically a few cents more.

Yes, every product we design we take a batch of 10 and send them to a testing lab which does environmental testing.
Hot/Cold, Humidity, vibration & shock. Testing is performed 2 times, once with unit powered and the second with it off then powered back on after that specific test.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:30 am

Whilst -40 to +85 is the published temp range, it should be noted that the chip can actually run at MUCH higher temperatures than that. During development the chips are tested in ovens at well over 100 to determine lifetimes and the like. The chip itself, it it detects itself overheating internally will drop its clock rate to reduce those temperatures.
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mikemoy
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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:33 am

jamesh wrote:Whilst -40 to +85 is the published temp range, it should be noted that the chip can actually run at MUCH higher temperatures than that. During development the chips are tested in ovens at well over 100 to determine lifetimes and the like. The chip itself, it it detects itself overheating internally will drop its clock rate to reduce those temperatures.
So to be clear, you saying that the Broadcom BCM2835 that is stuffed on the board is -40 to +85.
That is one part down. Are all the parts on the board (caps and other IC's ) also of the same temperature range as well, or are there other parts of a narrower range ?

That part with the narrowest range will determine the whole board's temp range.

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Re: Pi Zero Temp Spec ?

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:37 am

mikemoy wrote:That part with the narrowest range will determine the whole board's temp range.
Surely you mean the highest minimum spec'd temperature out of all parts & the lowest maximum out of all parts ie it might not be just one component that determines both.

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