spock
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:40 pm

jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?

BMS Doug
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:03 pm

spock wrote:
jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?
They own VC4, with better drivers demand for VC4 may increase, then they can sell more chips with VC4.

This year more than 3 million Raspberry Pis were sold, with better VC4 drivers these sales could increase, "being nice to the Pi foundation" could make financial sense (if nice = 200k, when nice = 20 million then it needs better justification).
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:19 pm

spock wrote:
jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?
RPF are not the only user of VC IV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore
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spock
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:06 pm

i know. but i thought those are smartphones with no need for a full opengl linux driver? they already have everything they need to run 3d-accelerated android apps?

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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:17 pm

spock wrote:i know. but i thought those are smartphones with no need for a full opengl linux driver? they already have everything they need to run 3d-accelerated android apps?
The Roku is not a SmartPhone, and there are likely to be OEMs who do not advertise they use Broadcom SoC's in there products......
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:19 pm

True, but these drivers may well keep Broadcom customer interested in the VC4 technology, for longer than might otherwise.

And of course, they need to keep the Foundation/Eben happy! Note Eben also still works for Broadcom.
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:20 pm

spock wrote:i know. but i thought those are smartphones with no need for a full opengl linux driver? they already have everything they need to run 3d-accelerated android apps?
I guess you have to pay extra for the source of the driver. Else you get onlu the binary blob.
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leiptrstormr
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:32 am

spock wrote:
jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?
It makes sense if Broadcom wants to have ARM/VC4 as a development platform using Linux. If you look at some of these other single board computers, you'll notice that many of them are stalled at kernel 3.4 or 3.8. There's a good reason for that. They need someone to reverse engineer the closed firmware so it plays nice with future updates. Chances are the hardware manufacture has something new and shiny they want you to buy and they've lost all interest.

I guess I should also add, VC5 for future Pi use would be completely worthless because nobody is getting the most out of VC4 on Linux today. Broadcom could certainly shop VC5 to Android cellphone manufacturers though.

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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:27 am

leiptrstormr wrote:
spock wrote:
jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?
It makes sense if Broadcom wants to have ARM/VC4 as a development platform using Linux. If you look at some of these other single board computers, you'll notice that many of them are stalled at kernel 3.4 or 3.8. There's a good reason for that. They need someone to reverse engineer the closed firmware so it plays nice with future updates. Chances are the hardware manufacture has something new and shiny they want you to buy and they've lost all interest.

I guess I should also add, VC5 for future Pi use would be completely worthless because nobody is getting the most out of VC4 on Linux today. Broadcom could certainly shop VC5 to Android cellphone manufacturers though.
Nowadays, the cost to develop your own GPU is prohibitive, so I think everyone will end up on Mali eventually. It comes down to the fact that the handset/tablet manufacturers are only willing to pay peanuts for SoC's, so you cannot recover the dev costs of your own GPU.
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:40 am

jamesh wrote: Nowadays, the cost to develop your own GPU is prohibitive, so I think everyone will end up on Mali eventually. It comes down to the fact that the handset/tablet manufacturers are only willing to pay peanuts for SoC's, so you cannot recover the dev costs of your own GPU.
In The Future...
...Nvidia and AMD will come around to provide an M version for their GPU. So Mali would be equivalent to intel HD. Also will give rise to Alienware and ROG smartphones with dual thick and hot "gaming" phones.
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:47 am

Since Linus released the new Linux 4.5-rc1 Kernel this week, are we one step closer to OpenGL on our nice Pi?

Phoronix: The Many New Features & Improvements Of The Linux 4.5 Kernel
- While the VC4 DRM [=Direct Rendering Manager] driver was previously added as the Raspberry Pi kernel mode-setting driver, the kernels up to now haven't had the necessary bits for supporting 3D/OpenGL in conjunction with the new VC4 Gallium3D driver from Mesa. However, with Linux 4.5 those needed kernel bits are in place for having a fully open Raspberry Pi 3D driver stack.
And:
- A huge ARMv6 and ARMv7 code rework that has been five years in the making. With this multi-platform work, support for different ARMv6 and ARMv7 boards can now be compiled into the same working kernel.
Would this mean also one common kernel for the Pi1 (ARMv6) and the Pi2 (ARMv7) in the more or less near future?

And what's with Raspbian's thousands of applications from the software repository: do they always have to be compiled either against ARMv6 (then also running in ARMv6 mode on the Pi2, like today) or against ARMv7 only (like for example Ubuntu Mate for the Pi2), or can binaries use the ARMv7's features dynamically? I suppose this is rather a compiler question and not so much Kernel 4.5 related...

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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:34 pm

ric96 wrote:
jamesh wrote: Nowadays, the cost to develop your own GPU is prohibitive, so I think everyone will end up on Mali eventually. It comes down to the fact that the handset/tablet manufacturers are only willing to pay peanuts for SoC's, so you cannot recover the dev costs of your own GPU.
In The Future...
...Nvidia and AMD will come around to provide an M version for their GPU. So Mali would be equivalent to intel HD. Also will give rise to Alienware and ROG smartphones with dual thick and hot "gaming" phones.
Does anyone really know what broadcom has planned for VideoCore???

I heard the VC was still being developed as it has some advantages over other GPU, seems likely as broadcom is employing anholt to work on drivers and I think saw mention that a VC5 had been drawing boarded.

Can anyone give an overview of advantages of VC, I remember way way back hearing about alphamosaic creating very low power to performance figures (i.e. power efficient GPU).

I was looking at this link the other day: http://linuxgizmos.com/ringing-in-2016- ... ndly-sbcs/ and seems theres huge numbers of new boards in the SOC market.

I guess that with a ready designed set of silicon building blocks (dsp, GPU, CPU, video processor, IO, DMA, bus topology, etc), it should be relatively easy to paste together the right blocks required to optimize a SOC for a given task.

VC4 still seems fast but mali seems to have newer 'MP' versions that have better GPUFLOPS http://gpuflops.blogspot.co.uk/ I assume MP meaning multiple processors cores?

I would have thought VC could just add a load more QPU processors to boost the GPUFLOPS, the question is how power efficient VC is compared with mali or other GPU available???

Does anyone know what broadcom may have planned that could flow down into future rpi, will there be new VC chips designed for 4k HD sony TVs or bluray players?

Seems strange to pay for GPU driver development if the platform is dumped?

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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:49 am

Broadcom made the entire VC5 dev team redundant (I was one of them!). A lot of work had already been completed, the GPU for example was working. Other areas (camera, H265 etc) were not so complete.

What Brcm intend to do with it? I don't know, and if I did I suspect I wouldn't be able to say anything about it.

Meanwhile, the Anholt stuff means the VC4 life is actually extended - even though it's now pretty old, it's still a very good GPU for something like the Pi, and the MESA drivers will make the Pi and other product using it even faster.

It's biggest drawback I think is lack of H265/HEVC.
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:36 pm

BMS Doug wrote:
spock wrote:
jamesh wrote:Cost of one engineer to do the VC4 OSS driver, $200k-$300k (multi year project)

Cost to develop VC5 $20M.

Numbers made up, but about the right sort of magnitude.

$200k seems a bargain for what Eric Anholt is doing - if nothing else, Broadcom get a of of publicity.
but if there will be no VC5 then video core technology is a dead end, or isn't it?
who will use the open source driver besides the raspberry pi?
i still don't get why they are doing it. just to be nice to the raspberry pi foundation?
They own VC4, with better drivers demand for VC4 may increase, then they can sell more chips with VC4.

This year more than 3 million Raspberry Pis were sold, with better VC4 drivers these sales could increase, "being nice to the Pi foundation" could make financial sense (if nice = 200k, when nice = 20 million then it needs better justification).
While 3 million Raspberry Pis may seem small compared to the number of cell phones and tablets sold this year, most phones and tablets are not used as development platforms to teach computer programming. Childhood experiences made fantastically cool by great support for VC4 not only translate into knowledgeable university students and a competitive workforce but could also influence technical decisions made by future engineers, computer scientists and business executives who used the Raspberry Pi when they were young. This would then be one of the many examples demonstrating how software and hardware companies have achieved amazing win-win results by giving special attention to the uses of their products in education.


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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:30 pm

jamesh wrote:Broadcom made the entire VC5 dev team redundant (I was one of them!). A lot of work had already been completed, the GPU for example was working. Other areas (camera, H265 etc) were not so complete.
Gosh, so sorry - given the amazing success of the Pi, that's an incredible shame.

You'd expect the RPF to be working on RP4 or even 5 at the moment and surely they'd be eyeing upgrades from their suppliers like this kind of improvement? Wouldn't Broadcom be anticipating this and upgrading their chips, when they know they will be selling millions of them.

How very odd!

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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:23 am

merefield wrote:
jamesh wrote:Broadcom made the entire VC5 dev team redundant (I was one of them!). A lot of work had already been completed, the GPU for example was working. Other areas (camera, H265 etc) were not so complete.
Gosh, so sorry - given the amazing success of the Pi, that's an incredible shame.

You'd expect the RPF to be working on RP4 or even 5 at the moment and surely they'd be eyeing upgrades from their suppliers like this kind of improvement? Wouldn't Broadcom be anticipating this and upgrading their chips, when they know they will be selling millions of them.

How very odd!
Broadcom as was after redundancies were sold to Avago Technologies, so now a different Company, Avago then sold off many other divisions of what was the old Broadcom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcom

.
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Re: VideoCore 4 GPU Driver Added to Linux Mainline in Kernel

Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:42 am

merefield wrote:
jamesh wrote:Broadcom made the entire VC5 dev team redundant (I was one of them!). A lot of work had already been completed, the GPU for example was working. Other areas (camera, H265 etc) were not so complete.
Gosh, so sorry - given the amazing success of the Pi, that's an incredible shame.

You'd expect the RPF to be working on RP4 or even 5 at the moment and surely they'd be eyeing upgrades from their suppliers like this kind of improvement? Wouldn't Broadcom be anticipating this and upgrading their chips, when they know they will be selling millions of them.

How very odd!
RPi was a very small thing for Broadcom - good advertising, little support required. Volumes were just way too small for any real development on the chips. Broadcom like to sell in the 100's of millions. I believe they have sold over a billion BT chips for example.

RPF are not daft. They clearly have plans for the future and are working on then.
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