troombatzia
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 2:47 pm

Thanks for reply.
Given that MacOS (with Steve Jobs' famous obsession over typography) doesn't allow users to set hinting, I think it comes under the category of "expert users only".
...and old VGA owners using Libaration Sans. I can tell you that without hinting I see bad fonts. So, I think that including that option in simplified pipanel would be good. If you can, try Sans on an old VGA with different hintings levels.
This is why PiX is designed to be modified by PiPanel to allow a user to change the title bar of a window to whatever colour they want.
Where is this option? If I run pipanel, I upgraded yesterday night, I can't see any option for changing window title color. But really, it's not so important, at least until we'll have obconf in the PATH.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 3:15 pm

One thing which I don't understand is why going through Menu -> Preferences -> Appearances brings up something similar but different to right-clicking on the desktop and selecting Desktop Preferences. There is some commonality between each, but some things are only in one or the other, and they each use different terminology.

There seems no single, unified way of accessing settings or an intuitive way to know the route to get to a setting one wishes to change. I found that particularly evident with Menu -> Preferences -> Audio Device Settings and left or right clicking on the speaker icon in the menu bar. I can accept left or right clicks on menu bar icons may only offer info or a subset of settings, but behaviour is inconsistent between them.

There should be something which groups all related settings together which is easy and intuitive to find. Menu -> Preferences would be the obvious place to me, with sub-options for Visual settings, Audio, Keyboard, Network, File Sharing, and others.

troombatzia
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 6:21 pm

Hi.

Yesterday, I updated to the latest UI, but I'm experiencing a problem (bug?). The first login to the LXDE desktop is very slow. If I logout and then login again, it's fastas usually. I tried to remove some applets from panel but I cannot understand why the first login is so slow. Did someone else noticed it? Thanks.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 8:34 pm

hippy wrote:One thing which I don't understand is why going through Menu -> Preferences -> Appearances brings up something similar but different to right-clicking on the desktop and selecting Desktop Preferences. There is some commonality between each, but some things are only in one or the other, and they each use different terminology.

There seems no single, unified way of accessing settings or an intuitive way to know the route to get to a setting one wishes to change. I found that particularly evident with Menu -> Preferences -> Audio Device Settings and left or right clicking on the speaker icon in the menu bar. I can accept left or right clicks on menu bar icons may only offer info or a subset of settings, but behaviour is inconsistent between them.

There should be something which groups all related settings together which is easy and intuitive to find. Menu -> Preferences would be the obvious place to me, with sub-options for Visual settings, Audio, Keyboard, Network, File Sharing, and others.
I completely agree, which is why this is what I have been moving towards... I want to see as much as possible grouped under Menu->Preferences, with a few quick access items (volume and network access) on the menu bar. One of the main things I have done so far is to try to rationalise the huge morass of settings screens that the original Raspbian desktop had, and try and establish some form of rational grouping with them all in the same place. I am reaching the limit of what is actually possible without some major rewriting, but I think it is better than it used to be.

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 8:36 pm

troombatzia wrote: Where is this option? If I run pipanel, I upgraded yesterday night, I can't see any option for changing window title color. But really, it's not so important, at least until we'll have obconf in the PATH.
It's labelled as Highlight Colour; for visual consistency, the same colour is used throughout the desktop for highlighting, both in menus and in window title bars.

troombatzia
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Wed May 13, 2015 8:52 pm

spl23 wrote:
troombatzia wrote: Where is this option? If I run pipanel, I upgraded yesterday night, I can't see any option for changing window title color. But really, it's not so important, at least until we'll have obconf in the PATH.
It's labelled as Highlight Colour; for visual consistency, the same colour is used throughout the desktop for highlighting, both in menus and in window title bars.
Thanks for reply.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Thu May 14, 2015 6:17 am

spl23 wrote: ...
I'd argue that very few people would set hinting for fonts - it's pretty specialised. Given that MacOS (with Steve Jobs' famous obsession over typography) doesn't allow users to set hinting, I think it comes under the category of "expert users only".
...
The only reason that people don't think about font hinting is the fact, that it is enabled by default. Otherwise they would complain about bad text display.

Font hinting is an important technology to make vector fonts better readable on low resolution (up to 300 dpi) devices. Fine tuning it (some special options there) may be something only for experts.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Thu May 14, 2015 6:22 pm

I'm lost. what are we talking about here?
New UI for what? Which OS?
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Thu May 14, 2015 6:26 pm

solar3000 wrote:I'm lost. what are we talking about here?
New UI for what? Which OS?
There's only one official OS. If you're lost, you can ignore this thread entirely.

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Thu May 14, 2015 11:56 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
solar3000 wrote:I'm lost. what are we talking about here?
New UI for what? Which OS?
There's only one official OS. If you're lost, you can ignore this thread entirely.
I'm using raspbian. which are we talking about here?
Antikythera

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Thu May 14, 2015 11:59 pm

That's the one.

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 6:20 am

Maybe save confusion if this thread moved into Raspbian section?

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 6:56 am

mattmiller wrote:Maybe save confusion if this thread moved into Raspbian section?
Not really. This is more general. Most Raspberry Pi users will be using the standard, recommended, Raspbian system (either by NOOBS or by direct image). If it were specific to one of the alternative operating systems then it would be better placed in a specific sub-forum.

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 8:15 am

rpdom wrote:
mattmiller wrote:Maybe save confusion if this thread moved into Raspbian section?
Not really. This is more general. Most Raspberry Pi users will be using the standard, recommended, Raspbian system (either by NOOBS or by direct image). If it were specific to one of the alternative operating systems then it would be better placed in a specific sub-forum.
Well they could ofmentioned Raspbian in Thread Title, but to be honest just accepeted it was about Raspbian, also reading the RPF web site regurlarly also informative ;) ;)
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 10:43 am

If Linux WMs must pretend being something like a Win GUI, they should work like a Win GUI. There's a menu and drag'n'drop, but I can't just move icons to where I want but am down to the terminal and reading lots of text for a task that should be trivial in 2015 (this is just one example out of many).

*Anything* beyond a certain triviality level requires a shell, in contrast to Win, where even most system level administration is done easily in GUIs.

I don't think the situation can be solved by few adjustments. Instead, Linux should go the GUI path further to eventually become a user friendly OS. Until then, it is *just* a great server OS, and one, you can run free software on, but none offering a nice use-level experience.

Currently, I'm looking back to olvwm (started with it in the 90th) and think it's superior to everything we have now. It pretents nothing but what it can offer: Managing windows, desktops and a simple start menu.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 12:21 pm

Er, I use desktop Ubuntu, with Unity and one with XFCE, my father uses Ubuntu with LXDE.

All work fine. Easy enough to use.

I don't use Linux as a server at all.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Fri May 15, 2015 12:31 pm

You have to realize that Linux has many distros. Raspbian is one if them, which requires more console work than others. Ubuntu for example, I haven't touched the terminal unless compiling something. The GUI works well. Raspbian just needs a little more work in the console, but it can be easy once you get used to it. I never use the GUI on Raspbian because I don't need to.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sat May 16, 2015 11:16 pm

Is there any chance you guys could use /etc/alternatives/desktop-background instead of hard coding in the Raspberry Pi desktop background in /etc/xdg/pcmanfm/LXDE-pi/desktop-items-0.conf ?
For PiNet I ended up having to add a workaround to change the desktop background to /etc/alternatives/desktop-background (as can be seen here - https://github.com/PiNet/PiNet/blob/master/pinet#L1952).
With the most recent release, for some odd reason, you guys have moved it to another file? From pcmanfm.conf to desktop-items-0.conf, so I now need to go write a second patch for that.

I just don't see why it has to be hard coded? Would it not be better to just use /etc/alternatives/desktop-background (and in turn update-alternatives) like everything else? Would certainly make my life a lot easier as PiNet has a custom background.

Also, unrelated, but would you guys be able to continue to maintain Spindle? For a number of us in the community, Spindle is vital to see exact changes made. For PiNet, it allows me to see the exact changes made in Raspbian and implement them in PiNet. For example, "Modified udev rules for i2c and spi devices" means nothing to me, would make my life a lot easier to see the code used to do that.
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sat May 16, 2015 11:24 pm

Gbaman wrote:Is there any chance you guys could use /etc/alternatives/desktop-background instead of hard coding in the Raspberry Pi desktop background in /etc/xdg/pcmanfm/LXDE-pi/desktop-items-0.conf ?
Yes, that's a great idea.
Gbaman wrote:Also, unrelated, but would you guys be able to continue to maintain Spindle?
Yes, of course.
We've moved a lot of the tools under one umbrella and are integrating them together a bit better (more on that later). https://github.com/RPi-Distro
https://github.com/RPi-Distro/spindle
Gbaman wrote:For example, "Modified udev rules for i2c and spi devices" means nothing to me, would make my life a lot easier to see the code used to do that.
https://github.com/RPi-Distro/spindle/c ... ae4ca8ae46

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sat May 16, 2015 11:43 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Gbaman wrote:Is there any chance you guys could use /etc/alternatives/desktop-background instead of hard coding in the Raspberry Pi desktop background in /etc/xdg/pcmanfm/LXDE-pi/desktop-items-0.conf ?
Yes, that's a great idea.
Gbaman wrote:Also, unrelated, but would you guys be able to continue to maintain Spindle?
Yes, of course.
We've moved a lot of the tools under one umbrella and are integrating them together a bit better (more on that later). https://github.com/RPi-Distro
https://github.com/RPi-Distro/spindle
Gbaman wrote:For example, "Modified udev rules for i2c and spi devices" means nothing to me, would make my life a lot easier to see the code used to do that.
https://github.com/RPi-Distro/spindle/c ... ae4ca8ae46
Awesome, thanks.
Looks like I have a little work to integrate these changes then :)
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sun May 17, 2015 3:05 am

Currently, I see 3 versions of startx:
startx, startlxde, startlxde-pi.

This is confusing IMHO. Could we just have one?
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sun May 17, 2015 3:58 am

electronicsguy wrote:Currently, I see 3 versions of startx:
startx, startlxde, startlxde-pi.

This is confusing IMHO. Could we just have one?
startx and startlxde* do different things!

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sun May 17, 2015 4:25 am

AndyD wrote:
electronicsguy wrote:Currently, I see 3 versions of startx:
startx, startlxde, startlxde-pi.

This is confusing IMHO. Could we just have one?
startx and startlxde* do different things!
I know... startx works with the display attached, doesn't work on vnc. startlxde opens up the minimal GUI which works over vnc. Can't this be done by an argument to startx? like startx --lite (or something) but atleast both startlxde and startlxde-pi are not required?
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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sun May 17, 2015 6:53 am

electronicsguy wrote:...I know... startx works with the display attached, doesn't work on vnc. startlxde opens up the minimal GUI which works over vnc. Can't this be done by an argument to startx? like startx --lite (or something) but atleast both startlxde and startlxde-pi are not required?
LXDE is a Desktop Environment. There are others that could be used, but LXDE makes sense for the Raspberry Pi as it is pretty light weight. The startlxde script is a part of the lxde-common package. I believe this package is the same as the Debian package.

The startx script is a part of the xinit package. I believe this package is the same as the Debian package. When you run startx the default Desktop Environment is used. In our case LXDE, but it doesn't have to be LXDE. It could be Gnome, KDE, ...

The startlxde-pi script is a part of the raspberrypi-ui-mods package. It is a part of the User Interface changes provided by Simon Long (et. al.?).

It make sense to me, that all these files should exist.

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Re: New UI (2015-05-05) discussion thread

Sun May 17, 2015 1:50 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Gbaman wrote:Is there any chance you guys could use /etc/alternatives/desktop-background instead of hard coding in the Raspberry Pi desktop background in /etc/xdg/pcmanfm/LXDE-pi/desktop-items-0.conf ?
Yes, that's a great idea.
Except that what is actually displayed under LXDE is read from the user's config settings in ~/.config/pcmanfm/LXDE-pi/desktop-items-0.conf, not from either of the locations mentioned above...

This is where it is modified by the pipanel settings application, and this is where PCManFM reads it from in order to determine what to draw on the desktop. pipanel can't modify things in /etc/..., as it doesn't run with su permissions. If you want to set a custom desktop background, if you don't do so in ~/.config/pcmanfm, it will get overridden with whatever is set in there.

Putting a symlink in /etc/alternatives is the way to set wallpaper under vanilla Debian, but if you are using LXDE as the desktop environment (as we are), the correct way to set the desktop is by modifying desktop-items-0.conf, as above. This also allows you to control the display mode of the image (tiled, stretched etc) and the background colour used; as far as I can tell, there is no ability to control such things via changes to /etc/alternatives.
Last edited by spl23 on Sun May 17, 2015 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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