adlambert

Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:24 am

Lob0426 wrote:
I think the one thing that has been missed in the "PI" series is a keyboard. A version embedded in a keyboard would bring the Raspbery Pi back to its roots, the BBC micro.

It seems like it should not be too hard to work with the foundations partners to get a embedded keyboard version out!
maplin.co.uk sell something like this, it's called a FUZE version 2 and you can search it on their website.
As far as I know it's not a big seller though, probably because of price.

Edit: Found the link - http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/the-fuze-for- ... on-2-n32du

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:27 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
jamesh wrote:The problem with a new design that is more than just a core bump, is the cost. It about $1M to go from the design to the first samples, not including the actual design costs! So Brcm have to be confident in good sales, not just Foundation. And of course, they got rid of the team that developed the 2835 and 2836, so they are somewhat limited in staff to actually do the job!
Was it so much the 2835/2836 team as the VC4 team? And that before a VC5 could be finished?
The 2835/6 were developed by the Videocore team in Cambridge (Gert was in charge of the 2836 IIRC). One of the reasons they were done on time and in budget....
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:07 am

jamesh wrote:The problem with a new design that is more than just a core bump, is the cost. It about $1M to go from the design to the first samples, not including the actual design costs! So Brcm have to be confident in good sales, not just Foundation. And of course, they got rid of the team that developed the 2835 and 2836, so they are somewhat limited in staff to actually do the job!
I agree it would be expensive, OTOH going with a chip that wasn't designed to be a successor to the BCM2835/BCM2836 would mean throwing away much of the effort the RPF and community have put into the Pi1/Pi2 platform and not doing a new model at all would mean a slow slide into irrelevence.

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:44 am

plugwash wrote:
jamesh wrote:The problem with a new design that is more than just a core bump, is the cost. It about $1M to go from the design to the first samples, not including the actual design costs! So Brcm have to be confident in good sales, not just Foundation. And of course, they got rid of the team that developed the 2835 and 2836, so they are somewhat limited in staff to actually do the job!
I agree it would be expensive, OTOH going with a chip that wasn't designed to be a successor to the BCM2835/BCM2836 would mean throwing away much of the effort the RPF and community have put into the Pi1/Pi2 platform and not doing a new model at all would mean a slow slide into irrelevence.
That is a reason why, even though it would be expensive, it might be worth it to look into a die shrink effort. The existing hardware is fine--at least in concept. Raising the clock speed could keep it relevant, and going to a smaller process might be the least expensive way to do that.

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:51 pm

adlambert wrote:
Lob0426 wrote:
I think the one thing that has been missed in the "PI" series is a keyboard. A version embedded in a keyboard would bring the Raspbery Pi back to its roots, the BBC micro.

It seems like it should not be too hard to work with the foundations partners to get a embedded keyboard version out!
maplin.co.uk sell something like this, it's called a FUZE version 2 and you can search it on their website.
As far as I know it's not a big seller though, probably because of price.

Edit: Found the link - http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/the-fuze-for- ... on-2-n32du
I have seen the fuze. It is way too expensive at £135. That is close to $200 USD. It is not a keyboard with a RasPi and a power supply. What I mean is something in the $50 area. A "BBC Micro" style system that is inexpensive. Simple and Effective without all the bells and whistles in the Fuze.

Put a Raspberry Pi B+ or Pi2 into a keyboard, that's it! Simple!

That has been missed time after time.

Edit: £135 without a Raspberry Pi. So near a $250 system.
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:52 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
loppanjo wrote:what else could they add?
That's pretty much the key question. The differences between the B and the B+ are more USB ports, vastly improved power handling, mounting holes, and more GPIO pins. The Pi2B already has those changes. The only change one might have thought reasonable would be more memory, but the Pi2B is already maxed out there, so that is out as an upgrade.

What one expects to see (in order) is a CM2 and--possibly--a Pi2A, though an A+ with 512MB RAM might actually be a better follow-on in the next year with a Pi2A some time after that.
is the foundation testing out usb 3.1 type C for the RPi? If so, technically the type-C ports could replace hdmi, USB 2.0 ports, audio/vga out, ethernet. Probably have to start with just a single type-C, keeping other ports for compatibility and refining the design.
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:13 am

electronicsguy wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
loppanjo wrote:what else could they add?
That's pretty much the key question. The differences between the B and the B+ are more USB ports, vastly improved power handling, mounting holes, and more GPIO pins. The Pi2B already has those changes. The only change one might have thought reasonable would be more memory, but the Pi2B is already maxed out there, so that is out as an upgrade.

What one expects to see (in order) is a CM2 and--possibly--a Pi2A, though an A+ with 512MB RAM might actually be a better follow-on in the next year with a Pi2A some time after that.
is the foundation testing out usb 3.1 type C for the RPi? If so, technically the type-C ports could replace hdmi, USB 2.0 ports, audio/vga out, ethernet. Probably have to start with just a single type-C, keeping other ports for compatibility and refining the design.
Heh...Have you looked at the prices of USB-C cables?

(And, by the way, a USB-C connector wouldn't do a thing for VGA output, since the Pi has no way to generate the signals for it. I found that a bit annoying at first, but I've come to grips with HDMI and DVI-D since then and have no reason to advocate for the addition of VGA to the Pi.)

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:20 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: Heh...Have you looked at the prices of USB-C cables?

(And, by the way, a USB-C connector wouldn't do a thing for VGA output, since the Pi has no way to generate the signals for it. I found that a bit annoying at first, but I've come to grips with HDMI and DVI-D since then and have no reason to advocate for the addition of VGA to the Pi.)
actually I haven't. But that's always the case with newer tech. I'm sure in 6 months, we'll have hoards of cheap type-C cables now that apple has adopted it, Pc makers have announced they will, and given that it's not apple proprietary. It'd save a lot of space on the Pi, opening the doors to adding more hardware.
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:17 am

electronicsguy wrote: I'm sure in 6 months, we'll have hoards of cheap type-C cables now that apple has adopted it
Traditionally the words "Apple" and "Cheap" don't tend to go together ;)

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:30 am

rpdom wrote:
electronicsguy wrote: I'm sure in 6 months, we'll have hoards of cheap type-C cables now that apple has adopted it
Traditionally the words "Apple" and "Cheap" don't tend to go together ;)
Well if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'll realize that I said apple had adopted it first, pc makers have already announced it and it's not an apple propitiatory technology... its USB so prices will be decided "traditionally" by the general market.
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:56 am

As far as I know there are no plans for USB-C connectors. But I haven't spoken to Eben for a while!
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:28 pm

electronicsguy wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Heh...Have you looked at the prices of USB-C cables?

(And, by the way, a USB-C connector wouldn't do a thing for VGA output, since the Pi has no way to generate the signals for it. I found that a bit annoying at first, but I've come to grips with HDMI and DVI-D since then and have no reason to advocate for the addition of VGA to the Pi.)
actually I haven't. But that's always the case with newer tech. I'm sure in 6 months, we'll have hoards of cheap type-C cables now that apple has adopted it, Pc makers have announced they will, and given that it's not apple proprietary. It'd save a lot of space on the Pi, opening the doors to adding more hardware.
I got an ad from my usual source for cables recently. The cheapest USB-C cable they listed was $10. I don't recall what was on the other end. This from a company that sells USB-A to micro-USB cables for less that $1.

From what I've read, *all* USB-C cables have to have an active chip in them. While such chips are probably pretty cheap, the requirement is going add a fair bit of manufacturing cost to the cables, and cost that won't really benefit something that is just a *power* cable. (Since the USB-C is reversible, I dare say a power connector could just wire both sets of pins and ignore the need for orientation detection.)

So...while I'd be in favor of the USB-C connector for some future Pi on the basis of being able to handle more current than the micro-USB, plus the lack of needing to check orientation, until the prices come *way* down and the power requirements for the Pi go up, I don't see it. (It's kind of one with my early unease with case prices...I would tend to balk at a flipping power cable that--potentially--costs half as much (or more) as the device it is supplying with power.)

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:22 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
electronicsguy wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Heh...Have you looked at the prices of USB-C cables?

(And, by the way, a USB-C connector wouldn't do a thing for VGA output, since the Pi has no way to generate the signals for it. I found that a bit annoying at first, but I've come to grips with HDMI and DVI-D since then and have no reason to advocate for the addition of VGA to the Pi.)
actually I haven't. But that's always the case with newer tech. I'm sure in 6 months, we'll have hoards of cheap type-C cables now that apple has adopted it, Pc makers have announced they will, and given that it's not apple proprietary. It'd save a lot of space on the Pi, opening the doors to adding more hardware.
I got an ad from my usual source for cables recently. The cheapest USB-C cable they listed was $10. I don't recall what was on the other end. This from a company that sells USB-A to micro-USB cables for less that $1.

From what I've read, *all* USB-C cables have to have an active chip in them. While such chips are probably pretty cheap, the requirement is going add a fair bit of manufacturing cost to the cables, and cost that won't really benefit something that is just a *power* cable. (Since the USB-C is reversible, I dare say a power connector could just wire both sets of pins and ignore the need for orientation detection.)

So...while I'd be in favor of the USB-C connector for some future Pi on the basis of being able to handle more current than the micro-USB, plus the lack of needing to check orientation, until the prices come *way* down and the power requirements for the Pi go up, I don't see it. (It's kind of one with my early unease with case prices...I would tend to balk at a flipping power cable that--potentially--costs half as much (or more) as the device it is supplying with power.)
here you go...already less than $6.5 (http://www.amazon.com/CHENYANG-Reversib ... B00Q8TNDEC)

I definitely see the USB type-C on the PI. Its not a question of 'if'. Maybe a small question of when, but the main question is why - and I think the answer to that is all the following ports can be made into USB type-C and hence cut down on the number of ports (given that it can supply power and data simultaneously): micro-usb power, hdmi, ethernet, usb 2.0 ports, audio jack. Now you can shrink the size of the board, or throw in more hardware in the space obtained. Maybe integrate more memory, controllers.
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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:41 pm

electronicsguy wrote: here you go...already less than $6.5 (http://www.amazon.com/CHENYANG-Reversib ... B00Q8TNDEC)
Even at $6.50 they're too expensive to be reasonable for use on a $35 computer. Get them down into the $1 range and then they'd be reasonable.
I definitely see the USB type-C on the PI. Its not a question of 'if'. Maybe a small question of when, but the main question is why - and I think the answer to that is all the following ports can be made into USB type-C and hence cut down on the number of ports (given that it can supply power and data simultaneously): micro-usb power, hdmi, ethernet, usb 2.0 ports, audio jack. Now you can shrink the size of the board, or throw in more hardware in the space obtained. Maybe integrate more memory, controllers.
And require everyone with existing cables to have to replace them? Not bloody likely. A major virtue of the current connector set is that, by and large, many people have workable cables on hand that can be repurposed for the Pi. Switching to USB-C any time less than 5+ years would mean effectively requiring the purchase of a full set of cables for every connector. The Pi sitting next to me has 5 cables attached, plus a WiFi dongle (which would take other another cable as an adapter or a whole new dongle) and a USB stick (again, cable or new device). So...5 to 7 cables. At the price given that would be $32.50 to $38.50, or roughly the cost of the Pi itself. Now considering that 2 of connected cables are for the keyboard (it has one that cost $15) and the mouse (a $30 trackball), one might wind up paying nearly twice the cost of the Pi itself.

As for more memory...not going to happen unless a different SoC is used. The BCM2836 is maxed out at 1GB. Adding more circuitry on the board would increase the cost of the board (and there is no indication that USB-C connectors are any cheaper than the ones being used now), so where are you going to find the cost reductions to add new hardware? (Granted, if additional hard *were* to be possible, it's very likely that the only possible one would be an RTC, and that is an addition I'd love to see.)

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Re: Will there be a Raspberry Pi 2 B+?

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:50 pm

Well your points are taken. However, that is true with any new tech - people have to replace older stuff, there's no getting around it.
And as I said before, Type-C has just been released. The prices will come down even more as time goes by.

Now maybe a new RPI (type 2C :) ) may help some groups of people, who are not worried about the cost. But they want extra hardware on board - like RTC, wifi and bluetooth integrated, maybe a A/D, do away with ethernet/hdmi/audio... just have multiple type-c ports there to handle all that stuff if needed. This could be a high-end version of the RPi, not meant for everyone. For anyone who still needs all the USB ports, the B+ or 2B remain so they don't lose out.
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