stu232
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Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:24 pm

Is there such a thing as a RPi Demo Scene?

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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:38 pm

Could you give us a clue as to what a "demo scene" or "demoscene" might be and how we'd use one?
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Fidelius
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:44 pm

Those were the days! :-)
Last edited by Fidelius on Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:03 pm

Dougie

Please don't tell me that you have missed the phenomena, over the past three and more decades, that people have been wringing the last ounce of performance out of their machines to produce amazing sounds and graphics. The likes of which were not readily apparent from the hardware or operating system as advertised.

It all started with the C64, Spectrum, Amiga, Atari etc and still continues to this day. For example like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_%28demo_party%29

Can you see what a big event that is?! No, this is not just a strange phenomena in Finland. It's all around.

The Pi with its GPU is an ideal candidate for the extreme demo scene programmer.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

toxibunny
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:12 pm

I've seen a couple of scene demos done on raspi. One was a port of something originally on another platform, and one was new. Neither were mindblowing, but it was nice to see the raspi represented. search on youtube :)

Maybe you should make one, OP!
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

mikerr
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:40 pm

Demos were great when people appreciated the coding effort and technical achievement with limited resources.

Difficult to be impressed now :(

Kefrens Desert Dream (HD): https://youtu.be/hV2353kXHac

Spaceballs - State Of The Art https://youtu.be/5aXsrYI3S6g
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Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:15 am

mikerr,
Demos were great when people appreciated the coding effort and technical achievement with limited resources.
Difficult to be impressed now
I kind of, sort of, know what you mean.

Of course the only people who ever appreciated such things were fellow programmers.

As it happens performance is very important today. One software engineer for Face Book said something like, "If I can shave one percent off the run time of this algorithm that saves the company a hundred times over my salary just in electricity consumption alone"

All "cloud" cloud service providers are very interested in software efficiency. It's a real expense in power bills.

Meanwhile, down on the ground, we would all like the batteries in our phones to last longer.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Fidelius
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:59 am

mikerr wrote:Demos were great when people appreciated the coding effort and technical achievement with limited resources.

Difficult to be impressed now :(
Exactly!

The industrialised countries' modern man is so used to luxury and opulence, that hardly anything impresses him anymore. You see this also with computers and software. This is sad and unsound. Of course another Flood could help for another 1000 years.

When I work with today's IT trainees, they usually (not always) are so used to high-end hardware, bloated software and opulent "effects everywhere" "games", that my ASCII table which we knew by heart during our IT education, doesn't mean anything to them anymore, let alone the good old CPC and MAME collection which just can't get their attention anymore.

Aside missing the value of these things they also miss the creator's delight which we had when we programmed these demos back then on the CPC, Archimedes, etc with basically nothing. Like user "cpc464" said, by just switching-on the computer and then starting to program in BASIC. Well, Roger Wilson's fine Archimedes BASIC inside the RISC OS ROMs had an excellent ARM assembler.

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Fidelius
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:24 am

stu232 wrote:Is there such a thing as a RPi Demo Scene?
I doubt it because in a world so loud and gaudy, old school things including demos just get lost. (And the few exceptions to that rule won't have the power to form a "demo scene" like we had in the old days.)

This having said, the Pi is nevertheless an excellent effort to bring at least some people relatively "back to the (creator) roots". Bravo.

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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:29 am

The original desert dreams demo I linked above has been "remade" with modern rendering tech:

Desert Dream remake of the Classic Amiga Demo by Kefrens (2006): https://youtu.be/11fowneR08U

Visually great, but missing the wow factor
- the original ran on 7Mhz 512k A500 and came on 880k floppy disk

As for pi demos, there's this pishadertoy demo

OpenGL ES Demo on Raspberry Pi GPU: https://youtu.be/82PHzktgSNA
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toxibunny
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:36 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrOiSVh ... ata_player

You're all talking like there is no demoscene anymore. From where I'm sitting it's alive and well and groups are producing some stunning stuff. There's even an excellent demo written in python!

here's a couple of my favourites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tVSFhtn ... ata_player



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXWBESy ... ata_player
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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Fidelius
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:53 am

mikerr wrote:The original desert dreams demo I linked above has been "remade" with modern rendering tech:
Funny one, but pre-rendered; I've always enjoyed more the real-time demos.
As for pi demos, there's this pishadertoy demo
Small but mighty. Nice. Did you program it?

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Fidelius
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:02 am

toxibunny wrote:You're all talking like there is no demoscene anymore.
On the Pi there doesn't seem to be one -- yet.
Your other two linked demos are PC demos. Not bad, for sure, but on the PC: very cosseted people usually and hardly be impressible.
I know a lot of PC users but not a single one ever watched a (PC) demo. All my friends on the CPC, Amiga/ST, Archie, etc. however used to like demos a lot or even programmed some.

Now on the Pi I've to admit there seems to be more people interested in the good old stuff, because the Pi addresses the creators, furthermore more young new-comers start with a Pi because it's so affordable and nice (and these people are usually not as saturated yet as are the typical PC users).

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eriktheitalian
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:42 am

ati,tseng or cirruslogic chipset vesa or better vga card for dos mode performance+486-dx50 or 486-dx2-66 cpu with gravisultrasound was ultimate demoscene machine.


samples from pc:
Crystal Dream 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLMUfBikxTY
Second Reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFv7mHTf0nA
Second Reality Parody ( extreme dumb version )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nefmlQDmW2U
I cant using enough English language. My writings can be wrong grammer.$
"in micro$oft we not trust"

toxibunny
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:44 pm

Luddites!
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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DavidS
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:19 am

Now we only have a sudo demo scene on any modern system.

Gone are the demo coders pushing every limit, to do more on a machine than is conceived as possible. The true demo coders only focus on the older platforms still to this day (the C64, Atari 800 series, Amiga 1000, Atari ST, Atari Falcon, etc), and do not work with the newer stuff.

This unfortunate truth is in part do to the fact that the Operating Systems of today get in the way of direct access to the HW, and in part do to the fact that much of the HW is undocumented. There is no reason for the interface needed to access any HW to be closed, though companies seem to like playing dirty, and avoiding the purpose of personal computing (taking the power of programming the computer away from the big boys [eg the computer gods]). Somewhere we went wrong and allowed the computer gods to take back there power, as we set back and ignored it.

Now that 99% of the RPi HW is fully documented I would like to see a return of demo coding, with the RPi as the target (though it would have to be bare metal, or RISC OS in order to get around the OS limits). To see great demos that truly push the limits again, by doing more than should be possible on the HW and being as small as possible, that would be a dream come true.
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RudyB
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:56 am

Hi,

I was just searching through this forum and other (google) resources about the possibility of RPi for demoscene programming, when i stumbled upon this old posting.

For everyone still interested in the topic. RPi demoscene programming is now even a category on the demo parties like Assembly.
You can find some samples on: http://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platf ... +Pi&page=1

If anybody else has some nice links to tutorials about this subject, i am always interested.

Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:21 pm

There is a thriving demo scene today. 24 hours from now you can attend Assembly Winter 2016 in Helsinki. http://www.assembly.org/winter16 . It is huge. I bet there are a bunch of Pi heads there.

The demo scene is also broad. People are still writing demos for old computers and even calculators. There are competitions like "How impressive can you make 1024 bytes of Javascript"
http://js1k.com/

I would posit that the modern day Maker movement is a demo scene. Lot's of people are showing off what they can achieve with dinky Arduinos and such.

For those above who say the modern world does not care about optimization and efficiency I suggest you look around a bit. People like Facebook and Google care a lot about efficiency, they don't invest millions into optimizing their tools chains for fun. Then all around I see young web developers wanting optimize page load times and so on. Then there is the huge world of mobile battery powered equipment. And the rapidly growing IoT space. At both ends of the computing spectrum efficiency is on the agenda.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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liz
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:20 pm

We've been hoping to do something at Assembly for a few years; haven't got it together yet. Watch this space.

Eben and I were introduced in 1997 by this guy: this remains one of the coolest things I've ever seen anybody do with a computer, given the constraints.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

plugwash
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:26 pm

Heater wrote:One software engineer for Face Book said something like, "If I can shave one percent off the run time of this algorithm that saves the company a hundred times over my salary just in electricity consumption alone"
while such cases certainly exist they are the exception not the rule. The vast majority of applications are not on the scale of facebook.

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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:47 pm

plugwash,

Actually I did not say that. A Facebook engineer did.

You are right. Most of us are not working on the scale of Facebook or Google or Amazon etc.

On the other hand we may be, increasingly, working in the world of battery powered devices and the IoT etc.

Do you have an example of the bloat or inefficiency you would like to remove from the day to day apps we all use?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

RudyB
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:34 am

liz wrote:We've been hoping to do something at Assembly for a few years; haven't got it together yet. Watch this space. this remains one of the coolest things I've ever seen anybody do with a computer, given the constraints.
Hi Liz. I do agree. One of the very coolest things to do, making a demo and pushing the limits of the hardware.
I thought i saw an interview with Eben some years ago in which he also told he was hoping for a lively demoscene around the Pi.

As for me i am watching this space to see what is coming.
(and in the mean time trying to learn about 3D and graphics programming)

I saw just this week, processing is available on the Pi now. This is a relatively easy step to take for starters towards graphics programming.

gamecat666
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:45 am

i was looking at the pouet demos recently and also noticed that there is a 'raspberry pi' category, however it just looks like the demos are pretty much just generic linux/debian. (some using python?)

while technically running on a raspberry pi, the purist in me was hoping they would be assembler/bare metal like the good old amiga days.
stick a card in, instant on, boom.
To be honest, when the rPI was first released I was hoping that the demo scene would adopt it and push the progress of the bare metal side of things but its been very quiet. (i know, theres no point in complaining if you arent doing anything to help but its way beyond me :oops: )

RudyB
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:59 am

gamecat666 wrote:
while technically running on a raspberry pi, the purist in me was hoping they would be assembler/bare metal like the good old amiga days.
stick a card in, instant on, boom.
That would be great to do. But i myself was a C64 assembler programmer back in the days. Doing demo's. The difference with the Pi is, the C64 already came with an OS. You just had to write assembler code for the demo and run it.(and maybe the Amiga also, i haven't used the Amiga). So this is a big difference. Just to put in the card and boom would also means writing some form of bare OS/drivers to address the hardware. And that's a large amount of work to do. On the other hand, using raspbian OS and then use ARM assembly would be the same as using it in the old days on the C64.

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karrika
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Re: Raspberry Pi Demo Scene?

Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:11 am

There are still tables available at Assembly in Helsinki. I also have ready made DiscoHAT boards that can control pretty much anything related to sound, lights, bubbles, fog, pyrotechnics. All controllable with OSC through Python. It also controls video out through hdmi. So technically we could do anything in no time. The question is more like "what would be cool".

I wrote a game "Shaken, not stirred" for the 7DRL (7 day roguelike contest) a year and a half ago. One thing that comes to mind would be to do a 3D experience with ambient lighting based on that code.
Image
Anyone interested in teaming up?

Edit: to clarify the plot and ambient lighting a bit. External lights would be part of the game/demo (blue/white blinking while driving a police car, white flashes during gunfire, disco lights following music in the Casino and so on). The plot is a typical 007 thing with fast cars, beautiful ladies and a ticking bomb. The playing time is max 10 minutes. Because that is how much time you have to disarm the bomb before it explodes.

The action is old-school graphics with full screen characters.

The game part is logic solving. Pieces revealed by saving the ladies. A lot of pink/red hearts flying around in this demo. There is a bit shooting, but the point is not in the action.

It could be run as an automated demo or as a game where you make the decisions.

The plot, game mechanics and storyline are defined. So there is no "inventions" to make. This should make the task manageable.

To keep the design affordable we could implement it as a mini-scene. The display lying flat on the table. A reflecting glass for projecting the action. Three sections of LED strips for ambient lighting. Miniature fog generator.

The other options would be full sized scene lighting and beamers. But there may not be room for that at Assembly.

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