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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:51 am
by bullen
Heater wrote:The 96boards specifications are aimed that way.
Nice find: https://www.96boards.org/.

But it has wifi and other expensive stuff servers don't need.
Heater wrote:You may have noticed that the Raspberry Pi Foundation is an educational charity not a corporation seeking to make billions.
I'm not interested in FIAT money either, but some people only understand the world from that perspective. It is however a huge revolution and it's important that it empowers the people and not the big corporations, that's why the foundation is good.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:09 am
by Bruny
W. H. Heydt wrote:It wouldn't be just the cost of USB 3.0 hardware. IIRC. USB 3.0 is supposed to be able to provide 900mA per port, so the board would have to handle more power. Even on the A+, B+ and Pi2B, the designs are pushing past the specification limits for microUSB connectors, so boosting the power for the board would--besides more capable power regulators-require a different power connector.

It's not so much the cost of USB 3.0 circuitry on the chip as the cost of everything else that would have to change.
like now it should provide 500mA per port :?:

The slave component of GCHQ's Pi Bramble include 64 Raspberry Pi model Bs, 32GB of RAM, 1TB of Flash memory, 1,153 controllable LEDs, and eight Gigabit network power over ethernet switches. The LED lights are used to display the system status while PoE was used to cut the number of cables required.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:29 pm
by W. H. Heydt
bullen wrote: It's important to get the ball rolling on this in order to get the RPi cluster industry moving.
What RPi cluster industry? No one is going to use a cluster of Pis for anything other than learning how to make use of parallel architectures. PoE or no PoE, a Pi cluster just isn't an efficient way to approach serious clustered systems.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:43 pm
by ric96
DougieLawson wrote:If I had to choose between PoE or SATA or USB3.0/gigabit ethernet. I'd choose USB3.0/gigabit ethernet every time.

USB2.0 to SATA is good enough, USB3.0 to SATA would be even better
PoE is a complete non-starter, I'm not planning to re-wire my house and I'm happy using WiFi.
+1

Plus rather than dreaming about the pi3 why not talk about getting the OS refined for the pi2 and getting the damn gpu driver to work.
its healthy to think about the future and list the wants for a new pi but let the pi2 mature first at least 2 yrs. Then we can even think about the pi3 keeping in mind that the original time frame to release the pi2 was 2017

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:28 pm
by W. H. Heydt
ric96 wrote: Plus rather than dreaming about the pi3 why not talk about getting the OS refined for the pi2 and getting the damn gpu driver to work.
its healthy to think about the future and list the wants for a new pi but let the pi2 mature first at least 2 yrs. Then we can even think about the pi3 keeping in mind that the original time frame to release the pi2 was 2017
Yes...getting the most out of the Pi2 is important. However planning for the future shouldn't be put on hold for that reason. The RPF should be able to work on more than one project at a time and planning for "where to go from here" should always be such a project. That said, I don't expect to see a Pi3 for 3 to 5 years.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:42 pm
by Heater
bullen,
But it has wifi and other expensive stuff servers don't need.
That spec you have read is for the domestic/consumer/dev board. That is to say Raspi like machines.

96boards is working on a standard spec for server class boards that will be tailored to that use case. It's a work in progress in collaboration with interested parties in that arena.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:32 pm
by bullen
Ok Heater, sounds good, do you know when they have a deadline for something I can buy and what OS support do they have planned?

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:12 pm
by mahjongg
People who say that without the high voltage conversion its easy to add POE to the PI design forget that the PI by design uses an ethernet connector with built in magnetics, thus it does not allow POE, to adapt for POE the very least that would need to be done is to get rid of a connector with built in magnetics, and use a simple connector, and discrete magnetics, this would make the PI a lot larger, and thus more expensive, not only because of a larger PCB, but the discrete magnetics also cost more!
Its not worth it to do even just that. Just use an external POE receiver.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:17 pm
by Heater
Ah, no.

If I understand correctly the 96boards specifications are purely physical.

They say nothing of what SoC is on the board. It may well not even be an ARM.

They say nothing about the OS used.

Think of it like the very old S100 bus specification or the more recent PC104 or ITX form factors.

It's a spec intended to be used by many manufactures to use and enable physical interchange of boards in systems.

As such it seems there are ten or more companies developing boards to the "consumer/dev" spec right now.

I have no idea about the server class spec.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:33 pm
by Bruny
chgus wrote:PoE is convenient but costly. Have anyone considered optional PoE module -ready board? The arduino EtherShield / Ethernet Arduino either come with PoE module soldered in, or You may buy one and solder in yourself later. The cost of including it is left up to you.
What would the cost be to allow for such an optional on board module?
Would there be space to place it?
Could the same PoE module used with the arduinos be used for the (imaginary future) RPi?
some way to add PoE module on next A++ using modified Silvertel board :?:

There are minimal components, with a total typical cost of less than £7 (about $11 US Dollars or €8.50 Euros).

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:47 pm
by W. H. Heydt
Bruny wrote:
chgus wrote:PoE is convenient but costly. Have anyone considered optional PoE module -ready board? The arduino EtherShield / Ethernet Arduino either come with PoE module soldered in, or You may buy one and solder in yourself later. The cost of including it is left up to you.
What would the cost be to allow for such an optional on board module?
Would there be space to place it?
Could the same PoE module used with the arduinos be used for the (imaginary future) RPi?
some way to add PoE module on next A++ using modified Silvertel board :?:

There are minimal components, with a total typical cost of less than £7 (about $11 US Dollars or €8.50 Euros).
Considering that no A Series board has any kind of Ethernet port at all, just how do you propose "Power over Ethernet" to work with such a board? Wouldn't that just be a board that can handle up to 48v for it's input power?

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:28 pm
by Bruny
goal is to avoid additional cables :?:

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:45 pm
by eriktheitalian
ric96 wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:If I had to choose between PoE or SATA or USB3.0/gigabit ethernet. I'd choose USB3.0/gigabit ethernet every time.

USB2.0 to SATA is good enough, USB3.0 to SATA would be even better
PoE is a complete non-starter, I'm not planning to re-wire my house and I'm happy using WiFi.
+1

Plus rather than dreaming about the pi3 why not talk about getting the OS refined for the pi2 and getting the damn gpu driver to work.
its healthy to think about the future and list the wants for a new pi but let the pi2 mature first at least 2 yrs. Then we can even think about the pi3 keeping in mind that the original time frame to release the pi2 was 2017
I'm writed about gpu driver.Gpu driver is game changer.

There is no arm based linux system with enough gpu/xorg/wayland driver/api. Smoth gui is very important for today systems. Ios, android, windows mobile focusing this with carefully. Driver is coming. When its done i'm believe we can meet new c64..

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:15 am
by riklaunim
Any driver won't change much for an relatively old ARM GPU. It still won't be able to run games made on popular / commercial high end game engines that support desktop Linux via OpenGL and Intel/AMD/nVidia GPUs. And some CPU power is still needed. Even core-i7 may be not enough for bigger battles in 0ad ;)

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:43 pm
by bullen
mahjongg wrote:People who say that without the high voltage conversion its easy to add POE to the PI design forget that the PI by design uses an ethernet connector with built in magnetics, that do not allow POE, to adapt for POE the very least that would need to be done is to get rid of a connector with built in magnetics, and use a simple connector, and discrete magnetics, this would make the PI a lot larger, and thus more expensive, not only because of a larger PCB, but the discrete magnetics also cost more!
Its not worth it to do even just that. Just use an external POE receiver.
Eh, ok... arguments are getting thinner and thinner.

Guess you are seeing some light.

48 to 24V PoE Converter?

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:23 am
by Bruny
maybe this way would be more secure for kids with up to 5 Pis per converter?
This device lets you use any 48V PoE source (including Passive PoE, Telecom PoE, 802.3af and 802.3at) to power RouterBOARD devices.

Successful hack for desperate enough to void warranty!

Adapter

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:46 am
by mahjongg
bullen wrote:
Eh, ok... arguments are getting thinner and thinner.

Guess you are seeing some light.
My arguments are getting weaker? Considering any new PI needs to be roughly the same size, and prince, (see previous changes for proof of that) any change needed that makes it larger and more costly is a deal breaker. A hypothetical PI3 could be greatly improved with better silicon, better silicon can add features without associated cost, POE simply implies a larger board is needed, and a higher price.

So, No I don't "see the light", I see that POE cannot be added without increasing the price. A 2GHz 4GB model of a PI might be ultimately possible, and perhaps something like USB 3.0 can be added without increasing the cost, because all that can be done with a change of connectors, and better silicon. POE can not, and the fact that its a feature few people will need thus want makes it a non starter. That people will want this and pay the price for it is just wishful thinking.

I can see a POE HAT board would provide for a neat POE solution, only a very short loop though RJ45 cable, just a few cm long would be all that is needed to connect the boards together, so no separate long power cables, and ethernet loop through cables are in fact needed. the PI can be powered through the GPIO's. There would be two RJ-45 connectors on the HAT Board, one directly above the PI's magjack, the other one for ethernet + POE power somewhere else on the board, for example directly besides the first one.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:39 am
by bullen
Bruny wrote: Successful hack for desperate enough to void warranty!
Exactly! Thanks for finding this, this is what I want the foundation to do on all pi's but without the transforming...

@mahjongg

Image

Why cant you connect the 4 & 5 to the + and the 7 & 8 to the - of the raspi directly, nomatter the port type?

Just connect the damned things?! Think outside of the box, regardless of standards, could one make this work now and sort out the 5V switch later?

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:51 am
by gkreidl
bullen wrote: ... this is what I want the foundation to do ...
It won't and you know it by now; so stop insisting.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:17 am
by eriktheitalian
I'm respect developers, moderators. I can understand. This is low price aimed product. Better spec's mean more expensive price. Secondly. This is educational product. But lots of user not using for educational purposes.

Usb 3.0 is performance related object. I can understand its possibility. But i'm searching kernel optimizing related support. I can't find support. Lots of people using this like second computer.

Lots of people remembering amiga 500 specs. Todays computers more more powerfull but there is no good optimized software. This is intel+microsoft made computer universe.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:44 am
by fruitoftheloom
My take is if you want this then create your own product around the Compute Module, it will happen a lot quicker then attacking the RPF, even better a HAT product :!:

If you could point us Bullen to a sub $50.00 board which has this PoE feature then would be interested ;)

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:38 am
by DougieLawson
bullen wrote:
Why cant you connect the 4 & 5 to the + and the 7 & 8 to the - of the raspi directly, nomatter the port type?

Just connect the damned things?
You now need a voltage regulator / SMPS that can handle 7V0 to 30V0 and has to drop that to 3V3. That is going to take more PCB real estate and is going to cost a lot more for something that 99.9% of ALL users do NOT want and do NOT need.

I'd prefer my Raspberry Pis complete with regular power adapter to cost £35/€35/$35 or less. I don't want to pay for fancy hardware additions that I'm never going to use.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:53 am
by mikerr

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:10 pm
by mahjongg
Why cant you connect the 4 & 5 to the + and the 7 & 8 to the - of the raspi directly, nomatter the port type?
As the schematic of the magnetics ports shows they have 75 Ohm termination resistors inside that make it impossible to put any kind of DC voltage on the pins you want to use for POE, and all the connectors with magnetics I have ever seen have them, also the signal are not wired out of the port, so even if you could connect 5V to them, that 5V isn't wired out.

so whatever way I see it you need to split these wires from coming into the PI's port.

Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:30 pm
by plugwash
You can get POE capable magjacks with suitable transformers (the cores need to be beefier than for regular ethernet transformers to avoid saturation) and diodes inside. Not sure what the cost differential is.