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eriktheitalian
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:58 am

riklaunim wrote:
eriktheitalian wrote:my priority:

Important:
1) videocore driver (http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/VC4/)
2) usb 3.0 ( lots of usb 3.0 hardware not stable like usb 2.0. we need stable usb 3.0 )
Only some high end ARM SoCs implement USB3 (and all Intel/AMD low power SoCs?) so 2 would quite likely already exclude 1 and use a SoC with high tier Mali or nVidia GPU. As those high end SoCs aren't cheap you would just get a relatively expensive board (some are already available). New technologies is not Raspberry Pi goal ;)
Nec chip based pciexpress usb 3.0 cards selling for 11$. Last customer price with pi sized board. Price is not big problem. But i'm not know which usb chip compatible with integrating with broadcom arm soc. I'm not know is there enough data-path.

5 million raspberry pi sold.
I'm not know pi2 selling numbers. If usb 3.0 addon possible. Then lots of user can buy it.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:34 am

The Bcm2836 doesn't really have anywhere to plug a USB3.0 chip in to. Might be possible over the SMI I suppose, but not sure. And of course, even if the chip was $2, that would add $2 to the price of EVERY Pi, to the detriment of everyone who doesn't use it.

The Foundation weather station uses PoE adapters to provide power. Fairly cheap option fort those that need it.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:43 am

POE injectors work fine for anything that really needs POE
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:19 am

jamesh wrote:The Bcm2836 doesn't really have anywhere to plug a USB3.0 chip in to. Might be possible over the SMI I suppose, but not sure. And of course, even if the chip was $2, that would add $2 to the price of EVERY Pi, to the detriment of everyone who doesn't use it.
Optional usb 3.0 addons can be more expensive. This is not including default raspberry board. We can add camera. We can add audio codec board. There is display related special port. There is camera related port. May be, engineers can add usb 3.0 expansion slot.

I'm examined usb 3.0 included developer boards. They are very expensive ones.
Samsung and intel (giants) selling their usb 3.0 developer hardware for very expensive prices. ( 100$ and more )
Usb 3.0 is their expensive equipment selling strategy.

If raspberry can give usb 3.0 possibility for extra 20$. Giants can hunting flies.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:02 pm

It wouldn't be just the cost of USB 3.0 hardware. IIRC. USB 3.0 is supposed to be able to provide 900mA per port, so the board would have to handle more power. Even on the A+, B+ and Pi2B, the designs are pushing past the specification limits for microUSB connectors, so boosting the power for the board would--besides more capable power regulators-require a different power connector.

It's not so much the cost of USB 3.0 circuitry on the chip as the cost of everything else that would have to change.

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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:43 pm

As above, I'm not sure there is an interface on the 2836 to which you can attached a USB3.0 device, but if there was, it would require a complete board redesign.

Better to have it on the SoC itself.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:05 pm

jamesh wrote:As above, I'm not sure there is an interface on the 2836 to which you can attached a USB3.0 device, but if there was, it would require a complete board redesign.

Better to have it on the SoC itself.
Who really needs a USB3.0 on a pi?
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:46 pm

Never used POE but it seems to have some advantages

http://www.instructables.com/id/Power-O ... onversion/

http://www.instructables.com/id/PiPoE-p ... -Ethernet/

So it means adding some modular 8P8C connectors and a DC power converter to the Raspberry Pi. Nice project but I understand that most of us want to keep it separate from the Pi. The DC power supply could implement also the Wake-On-Lan function in this case.

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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:22 pm

jamesh wrote:As above, I'm not sure there is an interface on the 2836 to which you can attached a USB3.0 device, but if there was, it would require a complete board redesign.

Better to have it on the SoC itself.
U are right.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:25 am

plugwash wrote: Like others here I find PoE on a future pi highly implausible, add up the cost of the beefier transformers, the control chip and the isolated DC-DC converters and you end up with something that adds a substantial chunk to the BoM cost of something like the Pi for an application that is outside the pi's core remit.
Again, you don't need to have any transforming if the PoE pushes 5 volt!

Standards are there to be broken. Short cables FTW.

About SATA, that's not necessary, as long as the USB chip can deliver 10MB or so over ethernet you can use network drives.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:27 am

If people want to hack up their own ghetto-poe systems that is fine but there is no way I would advocate integrating such a system into a commerical device.

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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:29 am

All it requires from the foundation is two leads from the ethernet port power to the board power. Hell at this speed you can use two leads on the ethernet port as dedicated power leads.

It's important to get the ball rolling on this in order to get the RPi cluster industry moving.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:31 am

bullen wrote:All it requires from the foundation is two leads from the ethernet port power to the board power.
And some heavy voltage regulation to drop 48V0 to 5V0.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:32 am

DougieLawson wrote:
bullen wrote:All it requires from the foundation is two leads from the ethernet port power to the board power.
And some heavy voltage regulation to drop 48V0 to 5V0.
Please read my post... we will use 5 volt PoE... no transformation, short cables.

Think outside of the box!
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:40 am

bullen wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:
bullen wrote:All it requires from the foundation is two leads from the ethernet port power to the board power.
And some heavy voltage regulation to drop 48V0 to 5V0.
Please read my post... we will use 5 volt PoE... no transformation, short cables.

Think outside of the box!
But the PoE spec, which the RPF would have to stick to (or folks would fry their RPis) is 48V0. You can't say "We've got PoE, but by the way don't send 48V0 because we're expecting 5V0".
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:48 am

DougieLawson wrote: But the PoE spec, which the RPF would have to stick to (or folks would fry their RPis) is 48V0. You can't say "We've got PoE, but by the way don't send 48V0 because we're expecting 5V0".
You don't have to call it PoE, you can just say: "For the hacker/maker crowd out there, we added a way to power the Pi through the ethernet port so you can build your own ethernet switches with built in 5 volt transformator to save the planet and the human race from extinction." or something to that effect. ;)
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:51 am

How would you guarantee exactly 5v0 (OK, not exactly but within +/- 5%) at the board when using PoE? The reason 48V is used is because of the volt drop in the Ethernet cable.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:55 am

bullen wrote: It's important to get the ball rolling on this in order to get the RPi cluster industry moving.
This "RPi cluster industry" does only exist in your mind.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:55 am

bullen wrote:
DougieLawson wrote: But the PoE spec, which the RPF would have to stick to (or folks would fry their RPis) is 48V0. You can't say "We've got PoE, but by the way don't send 48V0 because we're expecting 5V0".
You don't have to call it PoE, you can just say: "For the hacker/maker crowd out there, we added a way to power the Pi through the ethernet port so you can build your own ethernet switches with built in 5 volt transformator to save the planet and the human race from extinction." or something to that effect. ;)
Popycock & Balderdash

If you build a product and require certification it must stick to standards, that is why standards are agreed upon.

Say you built a product with 5V PoE and someone thought it was 48V who pays for the mistake when the RPi anihilates itself, this thread is as always airy-fairy
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:24 am

BMS Doug wrote:How would you guarantee exactly 5v0 (OK, not exactly but within +/- 5%) at the board when using PoE? The reason 48V is used is because of the volt drop in the Ethernet cable.
Short cables.
gkreidl wrote:This "RPi cluster industry" does only exist in your mind.
Yes, I know, but if you add the figures = 10x (1000%) cheaper to buy hardware + 7x (700%) cheaper to run hardware = Intel will be completely gone from the server market in 5 years time. If the foundation misses this revolution they will regret it, multi-billion dollar change.
fruitoftheloom wrote:If you build a product and require certification it must stick to standards, that is why standards are agreed upon.

Say you built a product with 5V PoE and someone thought it was 48V who pays for the mistake when the RPi anihilates itself, this thread is as always airy-fairy
Well, you can keep using USB 2, and the rest of the world will move on to USB type-C.

You don't need a PhD to make a standard. I made my own Java Servlet specification that is a lot better than the official and thousands of people use it.

Insurances and rules are a thing of the past. They require huge amounts of hydro carbons.
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:34 am

bullen wrote:
gkreidl wrote:This "RPi cluster industry" does only exist in your mind.
Yes, I know, but if you add the figures = 10x (1000%) cheaper to buy hardware + 7x (700%) cheaper to run hardware = Intel will be completely gone from the server market in 5 years time.
If there were a market for such a Pi based system, then it would be using custom boards and Compute Modules, not the standard Pi boards. PoE would not be required as the boards would have their own shared PSU.

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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:37 am

rpdom wrote:If there were a market for such a Pi based system, then it would be using custom boards and Compute Modules, not the standard Pi boards. PoE would not be required as the boards would have their own shared PSU.
Yes, there will be, but that will take longer. Also the compute module is actually more expensive because of low volume now. And being able to service the parts yourself is important. That 50 compute module board might break all compute modules at once and it will be expensive so if it breaks that's bad and hard to repair. Also you want to be able to hot-swap any module, pulling an ethernet cable is easy, jacking that memory plug is harder.

The point here is, this will happen anyhow. Google, Facebook, Twitter and Amazon are already building it; they have to, with power bills of millions of dollars per month. When deflation hits hard, that is going to kill their business!
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:41 am

bullen,
It's important to get the ball rolling on this in order to get the RPi cluster industry moving.
Oh yeah, that is going to be huge. In Fantasy Land.

Frankly anyone putting bunch of Pi together in a crate who can't figure out how to power it all very easily via it's GPIO pins may as well not bother.

See here: http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/qu ... h-the-gpio
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:42 am

I think this thread has wandered into cloud cuckoo land ....

if you want to stack RPI's then PoE is not the easiest way to power them .. in fact PoE is good for stuff that is remote not close...
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Re: POE support on Rpi 3

Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:47 am

bullen,
If the foundation misses this revolution they will regret it, multi-billion dollar change.
1) The Pi is in no way suitable for the server industry as it stands.

2) You may have noticed that the Raspberry Pi Foundation is an educational charity not a corporation seeking to make billions.

3) The server market you speak of, think Google, Amazon, MS, server farms is being addressed by new 64 bit ARM designs. The 96boards specifications are aimed that way.

4) It is quite possible that a new runner on the block will address that space, the RISC V. There are many big companies including the likes of Samsung supporting that effort.
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