W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:19 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:41 pm
To me, some this is why we have a 3B+ and a 3A+. No ethernet of tall USB header on the A series. Nice and slim for embedded projects where a Pi Zero may not cut it. And why we have a Pi Zero, nice small bit of kit with the minimum "most" may want. And there is of course the compute module. IMHO thats actually what you want if you want to pick and chose what bits you want or don't want. Downside is your going to have to build and design the daughter board. Or just buy a dev kit. Two rows of 40 GPIO, 2 CSI camera connectors, two DSI display connectors, eMMC if you want it. Micro SD card slot, a full sized USB port and one full sized HDMI port. etc etc.
If there is a CM4, I would anticipate a CPIO4 dev carrier board. Such a board would probably have 2 HDMI ports, but I wouldn't want to bet on them being full sized. It's also possible that a CM4 will have to use a different connector to get enough contacts for everything exposed.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:26 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:19 pm
alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:41 pm
To me, some this is why we have a 3B+ and a 3A+. No ethernet of tall USB header on the A series. Nice and slim for embedded projects where a Pi Zero may not cut it. And why we have a Pi Zero, nice small bit of kit with the minimum "most" may want. And there is of course the compute module. IMHO thats actually what you want if you want to pick and chose what bits you want or don't want. Downside is your going to have to build and design the daughter board. Or just buy a dev kit. Two rows of 40 GPIO, 2 CSI camera connectors, two DSI display connectors, eMMC if you want it. Micro SD card slot, a full sized USB port and one full sized HDMI port. etc etc.
If there is a CM4, I would anticipate a CPIO4 dev carrier board. Such a board would probably have 2 HDMI ports, but I wouldn't want to bet on them being full sized. It's also possible that a CM4 will have to use a different connector to get enough contacts for everything exposed.
I don't think it was very long ago that the CM3 was released? Might be a while before a CM4 shows up. I just went by what I could find. ;)

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:34 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:15 pm
DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:08 pm
ON TOPIC:
I am still looking forward to the RPi 4B. Though I will definitely be giving it a bit of time before I get one.

I am surprised, based on the reports on these forums it appears that the firmware and Raspbian were both released pre-Alpha quality. It almost feels like they released it prematurely (just because the HW is ready does not mean that the Firmware and Software is ready, all three are needed for a release).
I'm having the same thoughts, Buster wasn't quit ready for prim time IMHO.
I won't get my Pi 4 until next week some time. Hopefully a lot of things get cleaned up by then.
I have a variation on that. I have 2 Pi4B boards, a 1GB and a 4GB, but I don't have either a 3A USB-C PSU nor a uUSB-B to USB-C adapter, though both are on order. So...some time in the coming week, I'll actually be able to boot up my Pi4Bs. (I also have some 16GB A1 class cards on order, the first of those for me. My usual source--Newegg--came up dry or with funny looking shipping charges, so I've gone with Amazon. 5 pack for $30. I figure the faster uSD speed finally justifies A1 class cards for my uses.)

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:14 am

I'm having the same thoughts, Buster wasn't quit ready for prim time IMHO.
Depends what you mean by prime time?
I'm finding mine works pretty good, but I am not pushing it, windowed YT not full HD yet.
32GB card fills up real quick as lots more stuff just works now.

Tried external 2.5" USB Sata HDD but 2.5Amp PS is not enough?
One of my old B+'s runs with externally powered USB 2.0 Western Purple for security cam storage.
It has done so for years, on it's 3rd HDD, been running 24/7.
So external powered USB 3.0 storage on the Pi4 as a Desktop PC that stays in one place.

Buster works pretty good if you can remember how bad that first version of Raspbian was ;)
It's not perfect but how many people are complaining?
How many Pi4's have been sold so far, 200k?
If it was really bad there would be much more whinging.
it appears that the firmware and Raspbian were both released pre-Alpha quality.
Well Raspbian is not exactly Alpha, Buster is just a newer version that has more mainstream Pi stuff in it.
There is a 4.19 kernel post that has been running for a long time, lots of things found and fixed in that.

Software can take x amount of time, in the mean time Pi4s are filling up the warehouse at 15K/day or was that 15k/week.
There must have come a point when the decision maker said, "Ok, it works and this list of known issues won't affect most users, let them out".

We get them early and nit pickers say it's not perfect?
Software is never perfect, not the big bloaty stuff we get these days.
"Release early, release often".
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:13 am

No one is nit picking on this one.

It is just that the complaints (many many of them on these forums), seem to indicate that it is less stable than the original Raspbian was (which I still have on 2 SD Cards and actually did boot on one of the earlier RPi boards today just to remember the issues).

And the firmware and thermal issues that are being reported by most, and are said to be do to the firmware, that should have been a not read for release in itself.

Ok the OS issues are not as big of a deal. As it is the Raspberry Pi is a Hardware product, so only the HW and Firmware needs to be up to par. Though the firmware does not seem to be quite there. Not to mention the other issues that have been attributed to the firmware.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:29 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:26 pm
I don't think it was very long ago that the CM3 was released? Might be a while before a CM4 shows up. I just went by what I could find. ;)
CM3 was a while ago. The recent (this year) release is the CM3+ series. The CM3+ finally broke past 4GB eMMC. In fact, there is no 4GB CM3+. They start at 8GB and go up from there.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:33 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:14 am
Software can take x amount of time, in the mean time Pi4s are filling up the warehouse at 15K/day or was that 15k/week.
One of the RPT Engineer moderators said that production is "over 15K per day". Not surprising, since some 5 million Pis are sold per year, so 100K have to be made per week, counting all factories.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:00 am

I think that first pallet of Pi's way back when was only 1000 Pi's.
Not sure if I want to be the warehouse manager of a warehouse filling up with 15 pallets per day :lol:
But then dispatching them out faster than they were made, going to keep the pickers and packers busy.
The logistics must be interesting.
Er, that's about $500,000/day :o Poor accountants :lol:

Is it done by robots yet?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

alphanumeric
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:16 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:29 am
alphanumeric wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:26 pm
I don't think it was very long ago that the CM3 was released? Might be a while before a CM4 shows up. I just went by what I could find. ;)
CM3 was a while ago. The recent (this year) release is the CM3+ series. The CM3+ finally broke past 4GB eMMC. In fact, there is no 4GB CM3+. They start at 8GB and go up from there.
Ah, right you are, CM3+. The compute module is one Pi model I have yet to buy. Mulled it over a few times but bought something else Pi related instead.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14770
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:37 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:00 am
Is it done by robots yet?
Most of the board assembly work is done by robots. The components are too small to be done by hand in any sort of quantity, but other parts are handled by actual humans which is great.

IIRC the Sony factory in Wales used to make old CRT televisions and was close to being shut down and making people unemployed when LCD TVs took over. Then they started assembling the Pi range and had to take on new staff, which is awesome.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:46 am

Most of the board assembly work is done by robots
I was actually thinking about the dispatching.
Had a vision of the full robotics Amazon system including pickers but only handling Pi's.
Wonder how many Pi's need to be sold to need a system like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKrcpa8Z_E
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

alphanumeric
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:50 am

rpdom wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:37 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:00 am
Is it done by robots yet?
Most of the board assembly work is done by robots. The components are too small to be done by hand in any sort of quantity, but other parts are handled by actual humans which is great.

IIRC the Sony factory in Wales used to make old CRT televisions and was close to being shut down and making people unemployed when LCD TVs took over. Then they started assembling the Pi range and had to take on new staff, which is awesome.
I do believe it's "pick and place"? For all the SMT stuff anyway. Kind of looks like a 3d printer but drops a part instead of ink. Through hole may be done by hand not sure. The ethernet and USB ports etc. Really cool to watch, much faster and more accurate than a person.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14770
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:24 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:50 am
rpdom wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:37 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:00 am
Is it done by robots yet?
Most of the board assembly work is done by robots. The components are too small to be done by hand in any sort of quantity, but other parts are handled by actual humans which is great.

IIRC the Sony factory in Wales used to make old CRT televisions and was close to being shut down and making people unemployed when LCD TVs took over. Then they started assembling the Pi range and had to take on new staff, which is awesome.
I do believe it's "pick and place"? For all the SMT stuff anyway. Kind of looks like a 3d printer but drops a part instead of ink. Through hole may be done by hand not sure. The ethernet and USB ports etc. Really cool to watch, much faster and more accurate than a person.
From the youtube videos I've seen, the majority is pick and place machines. The through hole is done by hand.

I dabble in SMT by hand. It's fun, but can be a bit fiddly.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:46 am

I dabble in SMT by hand. It's fun, but can be a bit fiddly.
We need stereo microscopes these days.
The extra i2c on the Pi4 will save me soldering an i2c mux, but the sensors are still tiny.
I hope to retire before I need electron microscopes ;)
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:59 am

I was always used to building circuits with through hole components on strip boards or my own home made PCBs. Since my TTL digital clock with Nixie tubes in 1974.

A couple of years back, after not doing anything electronic for decades, I decided it was time to give this new fangled SMD stuff a go.

I was somewhat amazed to find that if you use big SMD parts, what is it "603" resistors and capacitors and such, it's actually nicer to do than messing around poking leads through holes and trimming them etc. Quick and easy.

Even a lot of SMD chips are pretty easy to deal with.

And of course, who would make a PCB today when you can get really nice boards made for a couple of dollars: https://jlcpcb.com

It's a great time to be messing around with electronics.

ejolson
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:21 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:00 pm
DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:21 am
I would never ask for any features added to a Raspberry Pi, as they are already great.

Things that would be nice to see as it has been mentioned in this thread are:
  • Remove WiFi from those models that have it.
  • Remove Bluetooth from those models that have it.
You're going to be shocked, but I'm in favor is some variant on this. I could wish that the Pi4B had Pi4B and "Pi4BW" variants. Alternatively, designate a "Pi2Bv1.3" using the Pi4B board layout and SoC. It could even be underclocked...to say around 1GHz. And, from the way it is done, removing WiFi would also remove BT.
This thread discusses a sort of Raspberry Pi 3B- that was found in the wild:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 2#p1452093

It was a real Pi that was missing the Ethernet port but far as I know still included WiFi. Therefore, it is almost the opposite of what is being suggested here.

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm

Opposite? A Pi with no ethernet is just what I would like and suggested. https://9to5toys.com/wp-content/uploads ... e=1024,512

Look at all that lovely board space saved. Nice place to put some useful silicon.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:38 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:59 am
I was always used to building circuits with through hole components on strip boards or my own home made PCBs. Since my TTL digital clock with Nixie tubes in 1974.
If I had the time, money, and energy, I'd want to build a vacuum tube driven Nixie clock. Why go for half measures? Another interesting project would be a proper, vacuum tube, Theremin.

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:14 pm

W. H. Heydt,
If I had the time, money, and energy, I'd want to build a vacuum tube driven Nixie clock. Why go for half measures?
Well, when I built my Nixie tube clock I as only 14 or 15 years old. I had already done enough metal bashing making chassis for tube radios. I had just discovered this whole new world of digital electronics and it was becoming possible for mere mortals to get hold of TTL chips. The good old TI SN7400 series. After some experimenting I came up with a clock circuit cobbled together out of bits of logic circuit I had seen published in various electronics magazines.

It was fun taking my PCB board, with traces marked out with PCB resist pen, to the local university chemistry lab where my mother worked. One of her colleagues dunked it in a vat of whatever strong acid, which was hot, and it stripped pretty much everything off the board in about 10 seconds, resit and all!! There was just enough copper left on the tracks to make the circuit with the help of some solder tinning.

Anyway, isn't a clock made from vacuum tubes and Nixies mixing up different era's of electronics. I have seen a lot of gear built from discrete transistors or TTL that used Nixie tubes but not valve equipment. Displays in the vacuum tube days were neon lamps and decatrons.

Despite that, somebody has built and all tube nixie clock, can't for the life of me find a link to it now. It's huge!

Hmmm...I have a bunch of Nixies in a bottom draw...

ejolson
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm
Opposite? A Pi with no ethernet is just what I would like and suggested. https://9to5toys.com/wp-content/uploads ... e=1024,512

Look at all that lovely board space saved. Nice place to put some useful silicon.
Or maybe a nixie tube.

I think it is possible RISC V will catch up to ARM, partly because of uncertainty in how research and development will fare under SoftBank. With the recently released 3rd generation Ryzen CPUs, it seems AMD has caught up with Intel in single-core performance. If IBM can do the same with Power10, then anything appears possible.

Back on topic, it is nice how thoroughly the new Pi 4B caught up and surpassed the competing single-board computers in its price range.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14770
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:10 pm

Hmm, one of my first big projects was a two valve (tube) oscilloscope that didn't have a PCB, just tags to solder the components to. I should check if it still works. Since then I have used various types of strip board and home made PCBs. I looked at SMD and gave it a go. It even works on stripboard or protoboards and isn't that hard.

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:24 pm

Ah, tag strips.... there is a reason I called myself "heater" here.

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:35 pm

ejolson wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:34 pm
Heater wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm
Opposite? A Pi with no ethernet is just what I would like and suggested. https://9to5toys.com/wp-content/uploads ... e=1024,512

Look at all that lovely board space saved. Nice place to put some useful silicon.
Or maybe a nixie tube.

I think it is possible RISC V will catch up to ARM, partly because of uncertainty in how research and development will fare under SoftBank. With the recently released 3rd generation Ryzen CPUs, it seems AMD has caught up with Intel in single-core performance. If IBM can do the same with Power10, then anything appears possible.

Back on topic, it is nice how thoroughly the new Pi 4B caught up and surpassed the competing single-board computers in its price range.
I hope that ARM continues on for the foreseeable future. Though if they do fail at some point in the future I hope they will have the foresight to make sure there IP remains available to all chip makers for ever more, so that it can still evolve.

Though RISC-V is likely to find it self in a crowd of newer RISC CPU's for a while, with no one knowing who will end up on top.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:39 pm

DavidS,
Though RISC-V is likely to find it self in a crowd of newer RISC CPU's ...
Is it?

Do you have any links to potential candidates?

Because I don't see them.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10624
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: The Great Raspberry Pi Computers.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:30 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:14 pm
Anyway, isn't a clock made from vacuum tubes and Nixies mixing up different era's of electronics. I have seen a lot of gear built from discrete transistors or TTL that used Nixie tubes but not valve equipment. Displays in the vacuum tube days were neon lamps and decatrons.
Since Nixies *are* vacuum tubes, no, it's not mixing eras. I have a book somewhere in the house that I inherited from my father. It's a book of circuits to do various things. Since it was published in 1947, it's all tubes. Among the circuits are a 30Kc/s 'scope and a 4 tube decade counter--it uses dual triodes. IIRC, there is also a metal detector that uses miniaturized tubes. (A one tube proximity detector was developed during WW2 for use in 20mm AA shells. Think about that for a bit.)

Return to “Off topic discussion”