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Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:21 am
by tonyawad88
Hello,

We did a recent dive in and comparison recently at my workplace on the Raspberry Pi 3 B+, the team was so close on finally picking the Raspberry Pi for its next project, a serious one, not a school project per se. One of the main drawbacks for our project at least was the ARM processor not being as compatible with some of the software packages we wanted to use and with minimal official support to the arm equivalent software packages.

With a small team and less time to focus on maintaining/rebuilding these packages ourselves, we decided to go with an x64 computer, ten times more expensive.

All this to say, would it be even possible for the RPi team to come up with a new version of the Pi equipped with an x64 processor?


All the best guys, you have been doing great stuff.
Tony

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:54 am
by DavidS
Nope, that is not even ARM at all.

Fair warning, threads that attempt to say anything about ideas releated to future RPi tend to get locked very quickly, comes up way to much here.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:55 am
by Gavinmc42
Changing the software is easier than changing hardware.
This is a cost/time/quality triangle issue, square if you include quantity.

How many of these things are you making?

Just a few then stick with the more expensive x64 as you save time on software.
Lots of units then how many do you need to make to save the cost of porting software to ARM?
You also save cost on the Pi verses x64 SBCs.
Quality - Pi are very high quality, not many SBCs are made to that quality, in that volume, for that price.

Give RPT $100M to make you x64 Pi's, even that might not be enough.
RPT is a small design team compared to the big guys like Asus, Intel NUC. UDOO(AMD Ryzen)?

Seems to me you might want to consider ARMing your software team.
Arm based SBCs are normally lower priced, so if your team wants a future think about using Arm's.

Pi's run Linux and Linux runs a lot of software, how hard is it to recompile for Arm instead of x64?
I don't even use Linux on most my projects anymore, most can be done baremetal now with things like Ultibo.
My small "team" is just one person, I too had maintenance/rebuilding issues, hence the change ;)

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:34 am
by W. H. Heydt
Possible? Yes. Talented team, fully capable of doing it. Going to happen? Nope. Not going to happen. It would be pouring money down a rat hole. It would do nothing to move the RPF goals forward.

It's moderately likely that the wholesale price of the CPU in your x86 systems costs more than the retail cost of a Pi, so there is no way you're going to cram one onto a board that sells for $35. If the RPF took a sudden turn (probably requiring at least 4 dimensions) to go with x86, they would have to redo all the work on Raspbian and renegotiate a whole bunch of software licenses. It would be an immense--and expensive--amount of work with no benefit to the RPFs goals.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:38 am
by Imperf3kt
The Pi4 runs on Unicorn hair and pink smoke. It's more potent than blue smoke.

Joking aside, if you require x64, you may be better off looking to something like a LattePanda.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:10 am
by W. H. Heydt
Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:38 am
The Pi4 runs on Unicorn hair and pink smoke. It's more potent than blue smoke.
So much for THIS thread.... (In before the lock.)

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:36 am
by Imperf3kt
It was doomed before I posted, I just shortened the fuse a little.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:43 am
by code_exec
The chances of there being a x64 Pi are very minimal. It would increase the price by a large amount. Also, a x64 Pi would not be compatible with OSes such as Raspbian.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:50 am
by W. H. Heydt
It's kind of odd actually... The OP refers "x64". All of us are--basically--assuming he means x86, from the context. As it is the Pi3B/Pi3B+/Pi2Bv1.2/Pi3A+ are *all* "x64" boards in a way. And that is, they can run a 64-bit OS.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:15 am
by Imperf3kt
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:50 am
It's kind of odd actually... The OP refers "x64". All of us are--basically--assuming he means x86, from the context. As it is the Pi3B/Pi3B+/Pi2Bv1.2/Pi3A+ are *all* "x64" boards in a way. And that is, they can run a 64-bit OS.
I think you mean x86_64 as x86 is 32bit

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:32 am
by fruitoftheloom
tonyawad88 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:21 am
Hello,

We did a recent dive in and comparison recently at my workplace on the Raspberry Pi 3 B+, the team was so close on finally picking the Raspberry Pi for its next project, a serious one, not a school project per se. One of the main drawbacks for our project at least was the ARM processor not being as compatible with some of the software packages we wanted to use and with minimal official support to the arm equivalent software packages.

With a small team and less time to focus on maintaining/rebuilding these packages ourselves, we decided to go with an x64 computer, ten times more expensive.

All this to say, would it be even possible for the RPi team to come up with a new version of the Pi equipped with an x64 processor?


All the best guys, you have been doing great stuff.
Tony

There is no x64 CPU it is either x86-32 or x86-64 if you are talking about AMD / Intel Desktop / Laptop CPU's.



You lack research nous you can buy a x86-64 SBC at a reasonable cost, see:

https://up-shop.org/up-core/271-up-core.html

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2/


So do the RPF /RPT need to offer a x86-64 SBC, unlikely it would be commercially viable !

Best to stick with ARM CPU IMO....

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:26 am
by jamesh
tonyawad88 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:21 am
Hello,

We did a recent dive in and comparison recently at my workplace on the Raspberry Pi 3 B+, the team was so close on finally picking the Raspberry Pi for its next project, a serious one, not a school project per se. One of the main drawbacks for our project at least was the ARM processor not being as compatible with some of the software packages we wanted to use and with minimal official support to the arm equivalent software packages.

With a small team and less time to focus on maintaining/rebuilding these packages ourselves, we decided to go with an x64 computer, ten times more expensive.

All this to say, would it be even possible for the RPi team to come up with a new version of the Pi equipped with an x64 processor?


All the best guys, you have been doing great stuff.
Tony
Before I close the thread...

What specific applications require x86 that forced you to this choice?


And no, we won't be making an x86-64 based Pi in the next 5 years. I have no visibility of the roadmap past that, so won't say never (never is a very long time), but never does seem the most likely option.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:33 am
by bensimmo
code_exec wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:43 am
The chances of there being a x64 Pi are very minimal. It would increase the price by a large amount. Also, a x64 Pi would not be compatible with OSes such as Raspbian.
True, but they already have the x86 version up an running. I'm using it.
It would just need board specifics adding to configure etc (gpio, camera etc) most are probably already writing in the Debian world.

The RPT team are all ARM people though, so would be some learning to do just for a swtich when ARM is perfectly fine for their needs, they have good ties and know what they are doing with it.


Unless Intel/AMD plow a team in for free to set it up and keep it going.

Anyway, I still want a rainbow layered PCB.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am
by jamesh
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:33 am
code_exec wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:43 am
The chances of there being a x64 Pi are very minimal. It would increase the price by a large amount. Also, a x64 Pi would not be compatible with OSes such as Raspbian.
True, but they already have the x86 version up an running. I'm using it.
It would just need board specifics adding to configure etc (gpio, camera etc) most are probably already writing in the Debian world.

The RPT team are all ARM people though, so would be some learning to do just for a swtich when ARM is perfectly fine for their needs, they have good ties and know what they are doing with it.


Unless Intel/AMD plow a team in for free to set it up and keep it going.

Anyway, I still want a rainbow layered PCB.
The camera ISP is build in to the SoC. Since there are NO x86-64 chips with the camera ISP in, that rather puts the kybosh on an x84 Pi. And its not juat the ISP that is missing in most small x86 devices compared with the bcm2837 - h264, HDMI, 3D engine etc. Might be some with some of the features, but not all.

I cannot see us ever going x86.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:48 am
by 6by9
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am
The camera ISP is build in to the SoC. Since there are NO x86-64 chips with the camera ISP in, that rather puts the kybosh on an x84 Pi. And its not juat the ISP that is missing in most small x86 devices compared with the bcm2837 - h264, HDMI, 3D engine etc. Might be some with some of the features, but not all.
Not quite true as some of the Atom line went into tablets and had (a horrendous) ISP built in. Intel have canned that division though, so no further development/support from them on it.
jamesh wrote:I cannot see us ever going x86.
Me neither, but mainly on price. Those Atom chips were up at the $15-20 for the SoC alone, hence why the SBCs other people have linked to are up $100. It just doesn't fit with the intent to get cheap computing into the hands of kids to experiment with.
Physically the chips are larger too, so form factors would be changing. And if you thought device tree was bad for configuring ARM boards, wait until you encounter ACPI!

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:04 am
by andrum99
Any discussions about future hardware have to bear in mind the aims of the Raspberry Pi Foundation - namely to improve computing education. This means two things. Firstly, the device itself must be the best it can be at the price point for use in computing education itself. Secondly, the device must be able to make money for the foundation. Switching platform would make it much more difficult to sell to existing customers.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:08 am
by Burngate
This Intel / Arm dichotomy ...
Am I right in thinking one of the many advantages of Arm is that someone like Broadcom can add an Arm core to their own chip, whereas Intel etc. want to sell you their own chip?

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:51 am
by jamesh
Burngate wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:08 am
This Intel / Arm dichotomy ...
Am I right in thinking one of the many advantages of Arm is that someone like Broadcom can add an Arm core to their own chip, whereas Intel etc. want to sell you their own chip?
Anyone can buy the ARM IP and incorporate it, along with any other IP from any other vendors, to produce a targeted custom SoC. As long as you have the cash! Intel, not so sure.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:34 pm
by incognitum
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:32 am
You lack research nous you can buy a x86-64 SBC at a reasonable cost, see:

https://up-shop.org/up-core/271-up-core.html

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2/
Usually cheaper to just get an Intel NUC.
Those start at +/- 100 EUR including case and power supply.

==
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am
The camera ISP is build in to the SoC. Since there are NO x86-64 chips with the camera ISP in, that rather puts the kybosh on an x84 Pi.
And for most purposes a USB webcam in the same price range as your camera module would not be sufficient?
And those even have case and microphone for that price.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:34 pm
by jamesh
incognitum wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:34 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:32 am
You lack research nous you can buy a x86-64 SBC at a reasonable cost, see:

https://up-shop.org/up-core/271-up-core.html

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2/
Usually cheaper to just get an Intel NUC.
Those start at +/- 100 EUR including case and power supply.

==
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am
The camera ISP is build in to the SoC. Since there are NO x86-64 chips with the camera ISP in, that rather puts the kybosh on an x84 Pi.
And for most purposes a USB webcam in the same price range as your camera module would not be sufficient?
And those even have case and microphone for that price.
On the whole, USB webcams at the same price are just a bit rubbish with regard to image quality and don't have the extensive setup parameters available on the Pi cam. But that's horses for courses, they may well be 'good enough' for some purposes.

Still not going to make an x86_64 board though...not sure how many times that needs to be said. Just buy a NUC if you need x86. Nice bits of kit.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm
by DavidS
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:50 am
It's kind of odd actually... The OP refers "x64". All of us are--basically--assuming he means x86, from the context. As it is the Pi3B/Pi3B+/Pi2Bv1.2/Pi3A+ are *all* "x64" boards in a way. And that is, they can run a 64-bit OS.
Nope:
x64 is an alias for AMD64/IA64.

The ARMv8 we use is AARCH64 sometimes aliased as A64, so no assumption the meaning is comonplace.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:06 pm
by ejolson
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:50 am
It's kind of odd actually... The OP refers "x64". All of us are--basically--assuming he means x86, from the context. As it is the Pi3B/Pi3B+/Pi2Bv1.2/Pi3A+ are *all* "x64" boards in a way. And that is, they can run a 64-bit OS.
Nope:
x64 is an alias for AMD64/IA64.

The ARMv8 we use is AARCH64 sometimes aliased as A64, so no assumption the meaning is comonplace.
It would have been more interesting if x64 referred to 64 ARM cores. Especially considering the person making the original post purchased the x64 for only ten times more than the Pi. That's like getting

64 - 10*4 = 24

cores for free.

For the record, I think it is a very good idea to move threads that are off topic to this subforum rather than locking them. That is because locking a thread discourages everyone who posted to it from posting again, including the person who made the original post.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:38 pm
by DavidS
ejolson wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:06 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:50 am
It's kind of odd actually... The OP refers "x64". All of us are--basically--assuming he means x86, from the context. As it is the Pi3B/Pi3B+/Pi2Bv1.2/Pi3A+ are *all* "x64" boards in a way. And that is, they can run a 64-bit OS.
Nope:
x64 is an alias for AMD64/IA64.

The ARMv8 we use is AARCH64 sometimes aliased as A64, so no assumption the meaning is comonplace.
It would have been more interesting if x64 referred to 64 ARM cores. Especially considering the person making the original post purchased the x64 for only ten times more than the Pi. That's like getting

64 - 10*4 = 24

cores for free.

For the record, I think it is a very good idea to move threads that are off topic to this subforum rather than locking them. That is because locking a thread discourages everyone who posted to it from posting again, including the person who made the original post.
Knowing first hand the difference between ARM and x86/AMD64 I would dissagree with your math. Not to mention we do not know which 64-bit x86 the OP got.

Though as one example (that I have) a quad core x64 in the form of an Atom at 1.2GHz benchmarks about the same as the RPi 3B in AARCH64. While a average quad core x64 of today performs about three times as well per clock, this is real world stuff not what it could do under absolutely ideal conditions. So a modern 3.2GHz x64 for real world usage would perform roughly:

(3.2 / 1.4) * 3

Times better than the RPi 3B+. Tha is roughly 6.857 times the CPU performance of the Raspberry Pi 3B+. And that is making a lot of assumptions that the OP got the best that is available to day in quad core, etc. Beings the price I would say that it is likely that the OP got a single or dual core, possibly even one of the lower performance cores that are for embeded type usage.

Best case at 10 times the cost the OP got maybe 7 times the CPU performance (at best). Though the OP did not mention what RAM or how much, nor what GPU, etc all of which could unballance that equation.

Now a high end Intel core will do a little better in 32-bit PMODE than it does in 64-bit Long mode so that is another consideration that is being ignored here.

Not to mention that ARM cores are getting a lot better in performance.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:43 pm
by rpdom
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm
Nope:
x64 is an alias for AMD64/IA64.
Nope.
x86_64 is for AMD and Intel 64 bit x86 based processors, also known as AMD64 (because AMD released them before Intel did).
IA64 is for Intel Itanium 64 bit processors which are a completely different architecture.

Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:53 pm
by DavidS
rpdom wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:43 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm
Nope:
x64 is an alias for AMD64/IA64.
Nope.
x86_64 is for AMD and Intel 64 bit x86 based processors, also known as AMD64 (because AMD released them before Intel did).
IA64 is for Intel Itanium 64 bit processors which are a completely different architecture.
And in slang for over 15 years we have said x64 in regards to the AMD64 ISA (and Intels copy thereof).

And the copy of the Intel manuals I have call the intel implementation of AMD64 (licensed from AMD) IA64, so we are going on what Intel calls it.

Just like A64 is wrong for is for AARCH64 though still used.