jamesh
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:05 pm

jahboater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am

How much is a Windows license nowadays?
I have been looking at
https://www.quietpc.com
where you have options for the OS:
No pre-installed operating system: -
Windows 10 Home 64-bit: + £98.60
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit: + £134.16

You might also want to pay extra for all the anti-virus stuff, office products, visual studio etc.
TBH, that to me is the biggest reason for NOT using x64. Windows is very expensive, and although you could run Linux on x86, why bother making a much more expensive machine the doesn't give you anything else more than a cheap ARM machine, except for Windows.
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n67
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm

The usual stuff about why it hasn't and won't happen - yada, yada, yada.

But for all that, you can't deny that it would be nice - really nice! - to have an x86 based SBC, with the kind of support that the Pi has, available. What makes the Pi special (basically unique!) in the world of SBCs is the level of support.

BTW, it wouldn't necessarily have to run Windows. Yes, the hackers amongst us would figure out ways to make it run Windows, but the supported OS could be some variant of x86 Linux. People will now ask why bother with x86 Linux if not to run Windows; the answer is that x86, like it or not, is the standard Linux, and there are lots of software that is released as binary-only for x86. That's the marketing meme of Exagear, for example.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:46 pm

n67,
...you can't deny that it would be nice - really nice! - to have an x86 based SB...
I won't deny it exactly but I fail to see what would be "really nice" about having an x86 based Pi?
...the answer is that x86, like it or not, is the standard Linux,...
No it is not.

Linux has run on all manner of processor architectures since very soon after it was first created. I run Linux on x86 (32 and 64 bit), ARM (32 and 64 bit), PowerPC, MIPS. Linux is in widespread use on Itanium, Sparc, RISC V, IBM mainframes, all the top super computers, etc.

All these architectures are supported in the main line kernel tree.
...and there are lots of software that is released as binary-only for x86.
Like what exactly? Do you mean binary-only for x86 Linux or all that x86 Windows software?

I think if you really need Windows software you should just pick up a cheap x86 PC/laptop.

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:48 pm

n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
the answer is that x86, like it or not, is the standard Linux, and there are lots of software that is released as binary-only for x86.
What could this x86 "binary-only" software be on Linux?

I'm asking since I'm only using Linux machines (on ARM, x86, PPC, …) at my job and at home, and I'm really keen to learn from you which x86 "binary-only" (sic!) Linux program I missed during all those years.

And what does "standard Linux" mean? Number of Installations standard? Well, the largest Linux installation base are non-x86 machines, by the way. For example ARM powered Androids and Apples.

Also, if you like a Pi-clone with a Spectre+ comprimised Intel CPU, the Korean Odroid Pi cloners just released one.
Last edited by Fidelius on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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davidcoton
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:49 pm

n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
But for all that, you can't deny that it would be nice - really nice! - to have an x86 based SBC, with the kind of support that the Pi has, available.
So, why aren't you nvolved in a project to make it happen, instead of whinging here? I don't know if you have the necessary skillset, but the bigger problem is money. Developing and marketing an x86 Pi would not come cheap, and it is difficult to see a profit at the end of it. So it probably won't happen, and if it does I predict a financial flop.
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hippy
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:17 pm

n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
But for all that, you can't deny that it would be nice - really nice! - to have an x86 based SBC, with the kind of support that the Pi has, available.
There would a thumbs-up icon here from me if I could be bothered finding one.
n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
x86, like it or not, is the standard Linux
Most prevalent for desktops - Possibly. It was certainly true just a few years ago though that may have changed with the huge number of Pi and other Linux SBC's sold in recent years.
Fidelius wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:48 pm
n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
the answer is that x86, like it or not, is the standard Linux, and there are lots of software that is released as binary-only for x86.
What could this x86 "binary-only" software be on Linux?
It is any software which is written for Linux but only for X86 platforms.

There is a fair amount of that about for various reasons, including that some tools used to develop X86 Linux software do not support the creation of non-X86 Linux executables, or there being no compelling business case to provide non-X86 executables.

The company I work for developed Windows software because that was and is the dominant desktop platform and what the overwhelming majority of our target market use. We provided Linux software when X86 Linux became more popular and there was a business case for doing that.

Unfortunately the tools we chose do not support creating ARM executables and there is currently no compelling business case for delivering those.

As it is, QEMU works just fine for running our X86 Linux executables so there is a solution for ARM users who want to use our software without our having to provide native ARM executables.

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:25 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:49 pm
n67 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
But for all that, you can't deny that it would be nice - really nice! - to have an x86 based SBC, with the kind of support that the Pi has, available.
So, why aren't you nvolved in a project to make it happen, instead of whinging here?
How is wanting or desiring something "whinging" ?

And it's an utterly ridiculous notion that anyone and everyone wanting or desiring something should be involved in making that a reality.

There is nothing wrong in wanting or desiring things which one has no capability or hope of delivering themself.

n67
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:26 pm

hippy - I've got to give you credit for getting the points and not feigning ignorance like everybody else does.

You're a good man.
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code_exec
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm

n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

https://github.com/CodeExecution/Ubuntu-ARM64-RPi

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:58 pm

code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beelink-Z83- ... 3527062393
adieu

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code_exec
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:10 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:58 pm
code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm


Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beelink-Z83- ... 3527062393
I see now, but Intel Atoms are very underpowered compared to Intel Core i3. An ARM Cortex-A53 is more powerful than an Atom. I hope the Pi 4 has a more recent, powerful ARM processor such as the Cortex-A73, but not a x86 processor. A x86-powered Pi would not feel like a proper Pi.
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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:33 pm

code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/
I linked to one above, it was $18 each for whatever quantity it might have been (1000's). It is the one used in the HUDL2.

But you can find them all here with prices https://ark.intel.com

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:12 pm

jahboater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am

How much is a Windows license nowadays?
I have been looking at
https://www.quietpc.com
where you have options for the OS:
No pre-installed operating system: -
Windows 10 Home 64-bit: + £98.60
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit: + £134.16

You might also want to pay extra for all the anti-virus stuff, office products, visual studio etc.
You don't have to purchase the latest and greatest.
Infact, in my personal opinion, I'd never Ever suggest buying a Windows 10 license.

Pick up a copy of Windows 7 for around $30 and don't upgrade, it's really the best Windows version you can get.
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code_exec
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:13 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:33 pm
code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm


Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/
I linked to one above, it was $18 each for whatever quantity it might have been (1000's). It is the one used in the HUDL2.

But you can find them all here with prices https://ark.intel.com
I used to use a hudl2 tablet. It ran smoothly when I got it, but when I got a Lenovo Tab 4 8" Plus I stopped using the hudl2. I tried using the hudl2 recently to see if it still worked, but it was slow and had bad battery life. Yet my Lenovo Tab 4 has brilliant battery life and is really fast. Proves that Qualcomm processors have better battery life than Intel processors.
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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:19 pm

If there was ever for a x86 raspberry pi to be released, the first thing I would think of if it was possible to make a Hackintosh. MacOS can be downloaded for free if you have a Mac. No need to pay for windows :P MacOS is probably one of the best Unix OSes around.
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Heater
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:29 pm

Hippy,
It is any software which is written for Linux but only for X86 platforms.
I repeat, what exactly? So far nobody has offered an example. I was hoping you might.
The company I work for developed Windows software because that was and is the dominant desktop platform and what the overwhelming majority of our target market use.
Fair enough. I can understand that. There are diminishing returns in supporting lesser used platforms.
Unfortunately the tools we chose do not support creating ARM executables and there is currently no compelling business case for delivering those.
I don't understand that part. What tools are you using? Clearly not GCC or such that can build ARM and other architecture binaries as easily as x86.
How is wanting or desiring something "whinging" ?
Wanting or desiring something is not "whining". Whining about what you have not been given is "whining".

It's like the five year old boy opening a Christmas present from his grandmother then throwing a tantrum because it is not what he wanted, rather than be thankful for what he did get and the effort behind it.
And it's an utterly ridiculous notion that anyone and everyone wanting or desiring something should be involved in making that a reality.
What?

The only reason the human race makes any progress is because occasionally someone gets off their butt and does something to create what they want, rather than sitting around taking about it and waiting for someone else to do it.
There is nothing wrong in wanting or desiring things which one has no capability or hope of delivering themself.
OK, fair enough. I have dreamed of having a computer since I was 10 years old. Even if I had little idea about what they really were. At the time they were huge and cost millions of dollars. Clearly not something I could make myself. We all have dreams.

The bottom line for me is that Eben Upton conceived the Raspberry Pi and spent some years in making it happen. For the first time in human history making a full up serious OS running computer available to the masses for an incredibly low cost.

Since then the Pi has evolved and progressed massively, for the same low cost.

And still people "whine" that it is not what they want. I have no sympathy for that attitude.

code_exec
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:33 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:29 pm
Hippy,
It is any software which is written for Linux but only for X86 platforms.
I repeat, what exactly? So far nobody has offered an example. I was hoping you might.
I'll give you some examples. Google Chrome, WINE, Dropbox, and Spotify.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:35 pm

code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:13 pm
I used to use a hudl2 tablet. It ran smoothly when I got it, but when I got a Lenovo Tab 4 8" Plus I stopped using the hudl2. I tried using the hudl2 recently to see if it still worked, but it was slow and had bad battery life. Yet my Lenovo Tab 4 has brilliant battery life and is really fast. Proves that Qualcomm processors have better battery life than Intel processors.
No, all that proves is that you killed the battery of your hudl2 tablet by neglecting it for a long time.
Leave your Lenovo tab 4, for the same length of time and see how well it performs. I guarantee if it was more than 6 months without charge, you'll only get half the battery life from them on.
Last edited by Imperf3kt on Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:37 pm

DarkPlatinum,
If there was ever for a x86 raspberry pi to be released, the first thing I would think of if it was possible to make a Hackintosh. MacOS can be downloaded for free if you have a Mac. No need to pay for windows...
Are you suggesting we become pirates?

Unless you can show otherwise I'm sure the license conditions attached to any Apple OS do not allow the use of it on the hardware of your choice.

Might be a fun hack for some but is not viable at large.

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davidcoton
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:41 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:37 pm
Are you suggesting we become pirates?
Only if you shop at Pimoroni. :lol:
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:55 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:37 pm
DarkPlatinum,
If there was ever for a x86 raspberry pi to be released, the first thing I would think of if it was possible to make a Hackintosh. MacOS can be downloaded for free if you have a Mac. No need to pay for windows...
Are you suggesting we become pirates?

Unless you can show otherwise I'm sure the license conditions attached to any Apple OS do not allow the use of it on the hardware of your choice.

Might be a fun hack for some but is not viable at large.
I meant for personal use considering you have a Mac. But yes I don't know about Apple's terms and conditions of their OS.
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DarkPlatinum
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:55 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:41 pm
Heater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:37 pm
Are you suggesting we become pirates?
Only if you shop at Pimoroni. :lol:
:lol:
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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 pm

code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:13 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:33 pm
code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm


The Intel Atom processors probably cost much less than the Intel Core i3, but I looked at the Intel website and they don't state the pricing. Even if a Pi was made that uses an Intel Atom, there wouldn't be any benefits of using an Intel Atom over an ARM processor. The Intel Atoms lack the power to run many OSes nicely. MakeUseOf even recommend using lightweight Linux distros designed for older PCs (such as Puppy) on Intel Atom PCs:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-lightwe ... cessor-pc/
I linked to one above, it was $18 each for whatever quantity it might have been (1000's). It is the one used in the HUDL2.

But you can find them all here with prices https://ark.intel.com
I used to use a hudl2 tablet. It ran smoothly when I got it, but when I got a Lenovo Tab 4 8" Plus I stopped using the hudl2. I tried using the hudl2 recently to see if it still worked, but it was slow and had bad battery life. Yet my Lenovo Tab 4 has brilliant battery life and is really fast. Proves that Qualcomm processors have better battery life than Intel processors.
Well the HUDL2 is a 2013 tablet stuck on Marshmallow, while the Tab 8 plus is a 2017 tablet on Oreo and is (was) twice the price.

So it gains 4 years of tech and all the battery saving work that has gone into Android since then.

It's no surprise really and yes I do have both the tablets.
The (my) HUDL2 is still quite usable for browsing and general use.

Battery life is never going to be good on a four year old tablet.
This HUDL2 is terrible of any apps are being updated, I don't think that is directly a problem of the x86 chipset though.
Last edited by bensimmo on Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

code_exec
Posts: 191
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 pm

How exactly can you download macOS legally without having a Mac? You can't. If you want macOS, buy a Mac.
Last edited by code_exec on Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

https://github.com/CodeExecution/Ubuntu-ARM64-RPi

code_exec
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 pm
code_exec wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:13 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:33 pm

I linked to one above, it was $18 each for whatever quantity it might have been (1000's). It is the one used in the HUDL2.

But you can find them all here with prices https://ark.intel.com
I used to use a hudl2 tablet. It ran smoothly when I got it, but when I got a Lenovo Tab 4 8" Plus I stopped using the hudl2. I tried using the hudl2 recently to see if it still worked, but it was slow and had bad battery life. Yet my Lenovo Tab 4 has brilliant battery life and is really fast. Proves that Qualcomm processors have better battery life than Intel processors.
Well the HUDL2 is a 2013 tablet stuck on Marshmallow, while the Tab 8 plus is a 2017 tablet on Oreo and is (was) twice the price.

So it gains 4 years of tech and all the battery saving work that has gone into Android since then.

It's no surprise really and yes I do have both the tablets.
The (my) HUDL2 is still quite usable for browsing and general use.

Battery life is never going to be good on a four year old tablet.
Corrections. The Hudl2 was released in October 2014 and is stuck on Lollipop. I'm pretty sure Microsoft and Qualcomm teamed up to create Windows 10 WoA not because they felt like it, but because they wanted to create PCs with all-day battery life which Qualcomm chips give.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

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