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DavidS
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:11 pm

rpdom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:47 pm
TWIN is not GUI based. So no not TWIN. And to run TWIN on newer version of RISC OS requires using !GraphTask to support the old screen mode.

I did say GUI based text editors.
My first ARM system didn't have a GUI. Also I didn't see a need for that overloaded bloat. ;-)
LOL
I understand the lack of a liking for bloat. I am guessing then that you used an ARMv1 board on a beeb? If so I envy you for that. Or are you one of the few that got to play with Arthur OS before it had a GUI?

Because in ROM the retail versions of Arthur and RISC OS have a GUI (in ROM), that we call the WIMP, and has gotten a little bigger over the years (I forget what it was in Arther, though I am thinking a single module and some BASIC code), from 3 modules in RISC OS 2 to having the WindowManager, TaskManager, Desktop, Filer, Free, Pinboard, ROMFonts, TaskWindow, Filer_Action, and Window mdoules at minimum for the extras needed for our WIMP.

Though I did say as far as I know every GUI based text editor that has made it on RISC OS, at least since RISC OS 3.1, likely before that (I know that !Edit did in RISC OS 2) supports tokenized BASIC code apearing to the user as normal text, for files of type 0xFFB [BASIC].
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rpdom
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 pm

DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:11 pm
I am guessing then that you used an ARMv1 board on a beeb?
Switching on one of my Beebs and seeing "Acorn Computer 4096K" was a hell of a kick at the time :-)

ejolson
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:43 pm

DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:42 pm
Or should we all go back to using RT/11 for our operating system, and Mini Computers that take up the entire corner of a room consuming more power than the rest of the house and capable of up to 10MIPS using only 16-bit integer operations?
RT-11 runs quite well on the Raspberry Pi under SIMH.

Current state-of-the-art version control systems such as GIT, Bitkeeper, subversion and so forth do not track full metadata. This blog discusses some practical drawbacks of using metadata that is not tracked by version control systems.

The power of having the operating system treat all files as collections of bytes stored on a disk, can be contrasted to the complicated record-oriented file types present in some operating systems. Search, for example, on VSAM DASD for more information.

In my opinion, the metadata file forks in OS/X and other current operating systems indicates a forgetting of the mistakes of the past. While icons stored as metadata may glitter, they are not gold.

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DavidS
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:00 pm

ejolson wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:43 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:42 pm
Or should we all go back to using RT/11 for our operating system, and Mini Computers that take up the entire corner of a room consuming more power than the rest of the house and capable of up to 10MIPS using only 16-bit integer operations?
RT-11 runs quite well on the Raspberry Pi under SIMH.

Current state-of-the-art version control systems such as GIT, Bitkeeper, subversion and so forth do not track full metadata. This blog discusses some practical drawbacks of using metadata that is not tracked by version control systems.
That is unfortunately true, as they stem from the Unix world of not using metadata (1960's philosophy brought to the present). Though there are standardized ways to get around this. If you choose the RISC OS filetype metadata, when storing on a filesystem that does not preserve that metadata you on a remote system you apend the filetype as three hexadecimal chars after a coma (crude work around, though since the rest of the world is in the past we need it).
The power of having the operating system treat all files as collections of bytes stored on a disk, can be contrasted to the complicated record-oriented file types present in some operating systems. Search, for example, on VSAM DASD for more information.
That is an extreme, only the file type should be metadata. Hence the use of directories for applications.
In my opinion, the metadata file forks in OS/X and other operating systems indicates a forgetting of the mistakes of the past. While icons stored as metadata may glitter, they are not gold.
Not forks, not extended metadata. Just the file type as metadata. Like on RISC OS. Do not store an Icon as metadata that is a given (even though Windows does it as does Mac OS [not X] and BeOS, it is still wrong). Icons and other stuff belong in files inside the application directory (a normal directory with a different type, that stays the same on all systems [just loosing its type]).

So you got way off of what is being spoken about. NOT forked files at all. Just the metadata, and just the reasonable portion thereof, the filetype, or did the world cooperatively develop MIME types for no reason?
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:02 pm

rpdom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:11 pm
I am guessing then that you used an ARMv1 board on a beeb?
Switching on one of my Beebs and seeing "Acorn Computer 4096K" was a hell of a kick at the time :-)
I bet, wow. I bet that seemed lightning fast back then too?
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:31 am

I was catching up on the latest Bluetooth 5.0 modules for IoT sensors for Pi's and found this.
https://connectivity.lairdtech.com/wire ... oth-v5-nfc

SmartBasic in a tiny module. the chip used is the Microbit's bigger brother, the nRF52832.
https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/Low ... s/nRF52832
Cortex M4F 64MHz 512KB flash 64KB ram, that's bigger than my first computers , even my first PC only had a 12MHz AMD 286.
It looks like I need to brush up on my Basic skills.
Or I could use C or even Micropython.

Who wants to add a VGA output to it?
Use the 44 pin TQFP Prop1 = computer in a match box with OTA :o .
You blink and technology changes, old stuff is back in new ways.
Electronics is a great field for those with low boredom thresholds, it changes fast :D

Basic is back?
Here I was hoping it was dead and buried.
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ejolson
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:13 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:31 am
I was catching up on the latest Bluetooth 5.0 modules for IoT sensors for Pi's and found this.
https://connectivity.lairdtech.com/wire ... oth-v5-nfc

SmartBasic in a tiny module. the chip used is the Microbit's bigger brother, the nRF52832.
https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/Low ... s/nRF52832
Cortex M4F 64MHz 512KB flash 64KB ram, that's bigger than my first computers , even my first PC only had a 12MHz AMD 286.
It looks like I need to brush up on my Basic skills.
Or I could use C or even Micropython.

Who wants to add a VGA output to it?
Use the 44 pin TQFP Prop1 = computer in a match box with OTA :o .
You blink and technology changes, old stuff is back in new ways.
Electronics is a great field for those with low boredom thresholds, it changes fast :D

Basic is back?
Here I was hoping it was dead and buried.
Speaking of SmartBasic, they sell SmartWater at the airport and from a pH point of view it is also basic. I agree it's amazing how both the good ideas and the bad ones keep coming back. I once had some metadata on that, but the version control system lost it.

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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:35 am

Speaking of SmartBasic, they sell SmartWater at the airport and from a pH point of view it is also basic
Not basic, got some 0-14 ph test strips from chemist 2 weeks ago.
Testing bottled water ph 9-10 water measured 6.0, ph 8.4 bottled water also 6.0.
All bottled water I have tested has been below 7.0, some down below 4.0, soda also <4.0 but my tap water 7.0.
Going to make my own ph water, tap water plus spoon bicarb?

Not sure p-code basic can be called Smartbasic, was that not ZX81 basic?
Compiled Basic? Like LuaJIT?
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Heater
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 am

Gavinmc42,
Not sure p-code basic can be called Smartbasic, was that not ZX81 basic?
Wow, that is the first time I have seen you use an interrogative to form a question!

Others you might like to consider in future are "how", "where", "when", "why", "who", "what".

:)

ejolson
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:59 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 am
Wow
How, where, when, why, who and at what time will the C++ Fibonacci code be ready?

Once the challenge of creating a super-amazing graphical network multiplayer rewrite of the classic BASIC Star Trader game using ultra-modern non-line-numbered BASIC is finished and demonstrates the tremendous importance of not avoiding BASIC on the Raspberry Pi, would you mind hosting a tournament where we play it? I recall you have a faster residential upstream connection compared to me and probably most others.
Last edited by ejolson on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rpdom
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:18 am

DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:02 pm
rpdom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:11 pm
I am guessing then that you used an ARMv1 board on a beeb?
Switching on one of my Beebs and seeing "Acorn Computer 4096K" was a hell of a kick at the time :-)
I bet, wow. I bet that seemed lightning fast back then too?
It did.

It also made duplicating floppy disks with a single drive a lot easier. (I wrote software that was distributed on 5.25" floppy). Read entire disk image into RAM. Write to new disk. Write to new disk. Repeat as required.

I had a 10MB hard disk at the time. It was weird having a machine with RAM that would fill 40% of my hard disk if I did a full memory dump. (and that's excluding the RAM from the host Beeb, which I think was a B+128 at the time).

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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:23 am

I admit curiosity in the Star Trader rewrite and whome is to come up with what we all agree to be the best implementation in BASIC.

Though at some point we will have to agree on a few points, as there will likely be at least two different OS's involved and some of the code will have to be OS dependant:
  • A protocol for comunicating over the network for purposes of the game.
  • Enough details on game play in its graphical form to maintain compatibility between differing implementations at least to a point of being playable in multiplayer with different implementations.
Though first thing first we need at least one complete working version. And I am trying to spend more time on my RISC OS projects as well as my OS development project (I think it has been more than 2 weeks since I updated my web site, largely do to this thread).
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:40 am

rpdom wrote:
DavidS wrote: I bet, wow. I bet that seemed lightning fast back then too?
It did.

It also made duplicating floppy disks with a single drive a lot easier. (I wrote software that was distributed on 5.25" floppy). Read entire disk image into RAM. Write to new disk. Write to new disk. Repeat as required.
I forgot about the issues of copying floppies on low mem systems. Now days with the ability to bitbang a simple FD through an AVR with a serial connection to the RPi and a custom RISC OS module to drive it, more than enough RAM to never worry about. Or even after getting an Archimedes floppy images would fit into RAM.

Thank you for the reminder of times long lost.
I had a 10MB hard disk at the time. It was weird having a machine with RAM that would fill 40% of my hard disk if I did a full memory dump. (and that's excluding the RAM from the host Beeb, which I think was a B+128 at the time).
RAM dumps have always been significant. From doing a VIC20 dump onto a floppy through the Atari's, into the Acorn systems (starting with the Archimedes, and never looking back, through the RiscPC and up to the RPi). Dumping 1GB of RAM is still significant with a 30GB primary boot drive (USB SSD HDD).

The way I look at it my first "Real" home computer was the Acorn Archimedes, followed a few other A series systems, then the RiscPC, I missed out on the IYONIX, then came the RPi B, RPi 2B, RPi B+, RPi 3B, RPi 3B+, and still wondering what my next RISC OS box will be.

Yes I have had many other 32-bit systems through time, though none that could match the ARM based RISC OS systems in all ways. None that had the eloquence of the ARM ISA and the Modular non-intrusive nature of RISC OS with the ease of use and programming that RISC OS and ARM Assembly bring to the table (not to mention BBC BASIC V/VI AKA ARM BASIC).

So I would bet that you really had fun with the Archimedes when you got it?

Do you still run RISC OS?
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:46 am

DavidS wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:40 am
So I would bet that you really had fun with the Archimedes when you got it?
Oh yes. I went to the launch party in London, met some fun people and tried a few things out. Also visited Acorn in Cambridge to trial some software. I finally bought myself an A310, which got upgraded from Arthur to RISC OS, 105MB hard disk and 4MB RAM. I had a lot of fun with that machine.
Do you still run RISC OS?
No. I'm strictly Linux these days.

I did look at RISC OS on the Pi and was pleased to see that it worked, but that is not for me any more.

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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:35 am

Wow, that is the first time I have seen you use an interrogative to form a question!
Probably not, failed English, that why me done injuneering.
Extra "W" words arn't going hurt.
How did "how" get on that list, cause it ends in " W".

Question - Why avoid Basic, Answer - Cause it "was" old.
But look out it's back and useful.
Damn Zombie languages.

Hmm Basic with objects?
Precompiled object libraries? FreeBasic?
Hmm will it compile on my Gentoo64 Pi?
Can I use it for baremetal coding. Does it do multicore?
Hmm can I use it for a shell script language for Ultibo?

How do you kill Basic once and forever?
"In the beginning all we had was Basic, you young whipper snappers have so many choices...." , Grumpy old man hat on ;)
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ejolson
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:52 am

I'll try to answer some of your questions, but please keep in mind I've only written one incomplete Fibonacci program in FreeBASIC.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:35 am
Precompiled object libraries? FreeBasic?
Hmm will it compile on my Gentoo64 Pi?
I think object libraries are possible. FreeBASIC is essentially a C preprocessor so it should run on anything gcc runs on.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:35 am
Can I use it for baremetal coding. Does it do multicore?
There appears to be built-in keywords for threading. I don't know if all or any of the libraries are thread safe.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:35 am
Hmm can I use it for a shell script language for Ultibo?
Probably not as it's a compiler.

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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 am

Gavinmc42,
"In the beginning all we had was Basic, you young whipper snappers have so many choices...." , Grumpy old man hat on
Bah! Young'n's. In the beginning was FORTRAN, we had FORTRAN and ALGOL, BASIC was the new kid on the block. Actual grumpy old man :)

ejolson
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:41 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 am
Gavinmc42,
"In the beginning all we had was Basic, you young whipper snappers have so many choices...." , Grumpy old man hat on
Bah! Young'n's. In the beginning was FORTRAN, we had FORTRAN and ALGOL, BASIC was the new kid on the block. Actual grumpy old man :)
Unfortunately, starting with Fortran 90 there is still an irresistible temptation to use object-oriented operator overloading when implementing big-number arithmetic, so maybe things would not have gone any better.

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PeterO
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:22 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 am
Gavinmc42,
Bah! Young'n's. In the beginning were various Autocodes, then we had FORTRAN and ALGOL, BASIC was the new kid on the block. Actual grumpy old man :)
FIxed it :-)
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:17 am

My first home computer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5Iawpm5Kg
The bugs on this one was loose plastic tubes.
Horrible new newfangled stuff this plastic, it was never going to catch on, should have made it in brass.
Very slow clock cycles too, overclocking kept crashing it.

Never did find out what language it was programmed in. Assembly?
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Heater
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am

PeterO,

Yeah, autocodes. Us young kids were spoiled with those new fangled, formally defined, portable, high level languages. The old guys said that was just a fad that would never catch on.

By the way, your ALGOL 60 FIBONACCI NUMBERS program is now up on github:

https://github.com/ZiCog/fibo_4784969/t ... er/ALGOL60

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PeterO
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:47 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am
PeterO,

Yeah, autocodes. Us young kids were spoiled with those new fangled, formally defined, portable, high level languages. The old guys said that was just a fad that would never catch on.

By the way, your ALGOL 60 FIBONACCI NUMBERS program is now up on github:

https://github.com/ZiCog/fibo_4784969/t ... er/ALGOL60
Note Elliott has two "L" and two "T".

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

Heater
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:55 am

ejolson,
How, where, when, why, who and at what time will the C++ Fibonacci code be ready?
You know how programming in C++ causes brain seizures, posttraumatic stress disorder, anxiety, depression and paranoia? Among other recorded symptoms up to and including thoughts of suicide.

Well, after a period of relaxation and therapy, and under heavy medication I hope to be back on the job soon.

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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:59 am

PeterO,

Dang. I fixed it now. Also added a link to your Eliot 803 emulator page.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:51 am

You know how programming in C++ causes brain seizures, posttraumatic stress disorder, anxiety, depression and paranoia? Among other recorded symptoms up to and including thoughts of suicide.
Yep that why I use Free Pascal these days, I cannot cope with C++.
Oh and just a sprinkle of bicarb in a glass of water made the ph above 9.
Alkaline water is supposed to cure those effects of C++, will let you know if I'm cured tomorrow ;)

Just got Aarch64 Free Pascal going, wonder if it is faster than Basic?
Is there a Basic that runs on Aarch64 in Gentoo64 and 32bit Raspbian?

First 500? :o Will need to time this, my Celeron Core Duo Mint box starts chugging after about 40.
http://progopedia.com/example/fibonacci/58/
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