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DavidS
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:54 pm

Quote from bradburts on December 23, 2011, 21:33
Good luck.
Buying boards will help reduce the price for everyone else plus the gift of course.
What will the product do?
Raspberry Pi + custom ARM based board + P8X32A + Custom AROS based OS = Amiga styled modern computer (MuAmi). Later to drop AROS and replace with a truly custom OS. In this case the system will be inside of a keyboard.....

Later also will be a slightly different design for a modern Risc OS based system.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

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DavidS
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:57 pm

I note that I am doing the first run for the BeagleBoard, and will switch to Pi as soon as Pi is available.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

bradburts
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:26 am

That will be neat.
Especially if you can do a folding keyboard......

The P8X32A is new to me, does that mean you will create, say, a 4 core computer from 4 PI's?

I have not looked at Risc OS since the Arc days.

Prometheus
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:17 am

Quote from tufty on December 2, 2011, 12:59
I stayed, however, because I've been seduced by the potential impact that this board could have. Not impact as in "hey, cheapo desktops / STBs / MAME machines", but impact as in "this could positively change the lives of a whole generation in the same way that the first home computers did".
I must say, this impact and chance for a new generation to get the same opportunities as we did with the home micros in the 80s, was precisely why the RPi caught my attention in the first place. (I never had the mindset for programming, but I learned a whole host of transferrable skills just from being exposed to and learning to use those machines from a very young age. Conversely, I meet a number of folks nowadays who can't seem to transfer abilities from one type of computing device to another, even if the only differences are cosmetic, rather than functional.)

I've known folks who were led to believe that getting what amounts to a qualification in clicking menus in a certain order in Microsoft Word would allow them to work in (for example) video game development, and other such jobs. I would love to see this turned around somehow, and opportunities like this seem like a good start, to me.

So, yes, myself, I very much care about the goals of the project. There are clearly plenty of folks who feel the same way.

Quote from tufty on December 2, 2011, 12:59
I'd really like to think that people have projects for the initial run that do something to further the actual educational goals of the project, even if it's only for themselves, rather than simply getting mentioned on hackaday.com. I know there's people here who are using this simply as an excuse to teach themselves ARM assembler, and / or linux programming, that's totally cool.
I don't know if it counts as furthering, but when I buy mine I'll definitely donate one also, and if I come to buy another (pretty likely!) I'll do the same then, too. :P I probably won't be able to get in on the first run, though.

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riffraff
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:30 am

I've spent some time considering my answer to that question. What I keep coming back to is an experience I had several years ago. I was a Network Technology instructor for a brief time at one of those adult-ed diploma mills you see advertised on late night and daytime TV. It was both one of the most rewarding and depressing experiences in my life.

I remember one of the instructors had suddenly quit and I was forced to combine his class of noobs with a group that I'd had for several weeks. It forced a radical change in the order of the planned curriculum, and I had to choose a series of instruction modules that were either stand-alones or bridged the gap between the novices and my more experienced students. I chose HTML programming for our first combined class.

Understand that a number of these students had never had regular access to a PC. I had one young man who showed an acute interest in web page design and a natural aptitude for the aesthetics involved, but he consistently scored low on the pop-quizzes. I started spending some time with him after class, but unfortunately it seemed like the light would click on for a while and then would fade just as quickly. After a few of these sessions, one of the other students approached me, and said that he lived near him and they'd known each other since elementary school. He explained, "I thank you for trying with him, but he's just not gonna get it. Too much s**t, too much weed, his mind just don't hold nothin'."

It was just sobering. I went home and cried myself to sleep that night. I realized how fortunate I'd been throughout my life to have access to technical information, to magazines and books, to formal education and to knowledgeable people. I understood that all of this was possible because I'd had parents who'd made a safe haven for me and allowed me the freedom to pursue knowledge.

I wish I could have offered that to all of my students. Impossible, I know. These people were not a whole lot younger than me. But one of the key differences was that I'd gotten my hands on an inexpensive 1st-gen TV PC and had been bitten by the bug. My students never had these. PC compatibles and Macs were the thing in their youth.

I found out later that the successful core of my more advanced class that had survived the process of attrition was centered around one young man who was a talented hacker and had built all of them PC compatibles from salvaged components. They all had access to PC's and software and AOL and had their own study group online.

That's the difference I hope the Pi makes. Gets kids bitten by the bug young. Gives them something other than drugs and violence to be cool in. Gets them focused on getting a cool peripheral rather than getting a new Glock. Gives them a high when that piece of code they've been tweaking for weeks gets rave reviews from their friends rather than getting a high off a rock.

Pardon my crass speech, but screw the third-world. The third-world is right next door to me, in my town. That other third-world is highly misunderstood by so many well-intentioned people. Half of it is eating our lunch and stealing the opportunities of my less fortunate neighbors and the other half suffers from problems far more profound than can be solved by computer education.

Charity begins at home. I want to do something, however infinitesimally small, to fix what is wrong nearby first so that I live in a stronger, more capable nation. Only then should I worry about extending that helping hand across the world.

mun
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Hi folks - first off - I'm no techie - probably know just 'a bit' more about computers than the average dimbo on Facebook or YouTube. I registered today following the BBC's feature on these boards. I was really struck by missing potential in all the discussion - specifically as regards Microsoft's near total dominance in the PC market... something which I have to say is just NOT GOOD for any of us:

Security is poor because the OS is forever changing
Cost is high because the MS business model is based on forced and often irrelevant 'updates'
The entire result is bloatware with 95%+ being irrelevant to most users.
These are thoughts that have been in my head for a long time... not to mention most users in as much as they just wish the thing would behave and do the simple things they require without all the superfluous crap of Windows.

So the gist of my post is, WHY are you looking at these boards purely as experimenter's toys... things to play with and get kids messing about with? That's all fine - carry on - but consider this at the same time:

Why not ALSO work towards a super-low price bog-standard computer?

The price of your boards is just 'silly' cheap and most people have the necessary peripherals (screen, mouse, keyboards etc.) anyway!
Most people only want to use the basics: surf the web and do mail, write letters, mess about with pictures etc.
The market is MONSTROUS!!!
As I understand you are using LINUX, pre-installed software for the basics should be low cost.
LAST AND MOST DEFINNITELY NOT LEAST....
It's morally the right thing to do. The Microsoft monopoly of the market is just NOT GOOD for anyone... including all those kids you want to get involved in technology! (riffraff: your post immediately above makes the need clear... don't let Bill Gates keep the inequality in place... and sorry, I don't buy his stage-managed 'benevolence')

Sorry, not being a techie, I might be missing a few hurdles in these ideas but the only reason no one has done this yet is because the hurdles were deemed too big to even think about. Have the courage and pride to realise that you are making those hurdles look smaller than anyone else has ever done.

So what you waiting for?

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scep
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:02 pm


…WHY are you looking at these boards purely as experimenter's toys… things to play with and get kids messing about with?


Errmmm.. they're not. Have a look at "About us" and the FAQs.


Why not ALSO work towards a super-low price bog-standard computer?


They just did! (Though to be fair, it''s much better than 'bog standard' :) )

a.lone.wolf
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:18 pm

I do....I have always wanted to write code

This will also benefit the developing countrys, it will bring them almost up-to-date with tech and programming, cant wait for the launch in 2012!!!!

mun
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:42 pm

scep said:



…WHY are you looking at these boards purely as experimenter's toys… things to play with and get kids messing about with?


Errmmm.. they're not. Have a look at "About us" and the FAQs.


Good to see that – sorry, but I DID have a look about. Won't waste more of your time. Get on with it!







Canuck
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:49 pm

I dont think it will catch on, to many teachers are unwilling to learn anything IT and most "IT Guys" in schools only know office and some basic networking in Windows. Its sad but this generation of teachers are clueless about anything tech, infact I've heard stories of schools restricting tech, IE netbooks and such from classrooms on grounds of conservatism.

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scep
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:19 pm

Canuck said:


I dont think it will catch on, to many teachers are unwilling to learn anything IT


Evidence please.


and most "IT Guys" in schools only know office and some basic networking in Windows.


Evidence please


Its sad but this generation of teachers are clueless about anything tech,


Evidence please


infact I've heard stories of schools restricting tech, IE netbooks and such from classrooms on grounds of conservatism.


English please.

I think that we already established in another thread (on Scratch) that you may need to do some homework before you post. And if you are going to start pebbledashing unsubstantiated tripe like this at educators then you really need to do you homework.

Nigel
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:21 pm

I think the project has much going for it, not least the amount of press coverage and conversation that's been taking place in the forums - even before the product 'hits the streets'.

Without revealing my age... when training in radio and electronics (late 70s/early 80s) I recall an advert for the Cambridge/Sinclair MK14 and thinking then this was the start of something. At the time the question in my mind was what's that useful for? It was closely followed by the ZX80 and other machines - and the rest is history. I started with the Acorn Atom > Dragon 32 > Atari ST > PC {many home made variations} + have dabbled in Basic, Assembler, HTML, Linux, Java.

With the Raspberry PI, there are so many combinations of available technologies [both hardware & software] to interface that it's likely our imagination that's limited (initially).

I take my hat off to the Raspberry PI folks and commend them for trying something different; trying to engage the youngsters, tech folks, amateurs/professionals alike. Whether it catches on depends on us working together with any generation that is interested..

Canuck
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:27 pm


scep said:


Canuck said:


I dont think it will catch on, to many teachers are unwilling to learn anything IT


Evidence please.


and most "IT Guys" in schools only know office and some basic networking in Windows.


Evidence please


Its sad but this generation of teachers are clueless about anything tech,


Evidence please


infact I've heard stories of schools restricting tech, IE netbooks and such from classrooms on grounds of conservatism.


English please.

I think that we already established in another thread (on Scratch) that you may need to do some homework before you post. And if you are going to start pebbledashing unsubstantiated tripe like this at educators then you really need to do you homework.


Personal experience. I graduated recently and therefor consider myself a decent source of information regarding the teaching methods in my region. Sure, maybe 1 out of 50 teachers are genuinely interested in teaching, most others are stuck up with a simple "I'm better then you are at everything" attitude.

I'm not sure if they do things differently in the United Kingdom, but if all [and I'll bold this just for you] public education instructors are hyped up about actually teaching instead of making money then hats off to them. The average here are not unfortunately. Your method/logic in use for nitpicking posts is rather immature and comparable to "god is real unless you prove me wrong" argument. If you're going to nitpick without backing up your side of the argument why reply?

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scep
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:05 pm

Canuck said:


your method/logic in use for nitpicking posts is rather immature and comparable to "god is real unless you prove me wrong" argument.


Your example is called "the argument from ignorance". It's a logical fallcy. Asking for evidence is not a logical fallacy. Asking for evidence is not "nitpicking". In science we call it "asking for evidence" – it's that important :)

Asking for evidence but then only being given personal experiences and anecdotes is fairly typical, but problematical. Experience is subject to fallacies such as confirmation bias, wishful thinking, overgeneralisation, hindsight bias and so on. The list is very long.

People can get defensive when asked for evidence to back up opinions such as:


1 out of 50 teachers are genuinely interested in teaching, most others are stuck up with a simple "I'm better then you are at everything" attitude.


For instance, they may accuse you of immaturity and nitpicking simply because you asked them to show that this is, in fact, the case. They will say stuff like:


I graduated recently and therefor consider myself a decent source of information regarding the teaching methods in my region.


They may consider that this is the case. But it is not so – thay are a biased, selective source of information about the teaching methods that they have personally experienced or found out about second hand. Which is relatively limited.

In short Canuck: anecdotes don't cut it. Just like your anecdote about Scratch that was casually disproved once we had examined the evidence. If you want to talk more about evidence based research and logical fallacies let's take it off the forums. :D

Canuck
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:20 pm

scep said:


Canuck said:


your method/logic in use for nitpicking posts is rather immature and comparable to "god is real unless you prove me wrong" argument.


Your example is called "the argument from ignorance". It's a logical fallcy. Asking for evidence is not a logical fallacy. Asking for evidence is not "nitpicking". In science we call it "asking for evidence" – it's that important :)

Asking for evidence but then only being given personal experiences and anecdotes is fairly typical, but problematical. Experience is subject to fallacies such as confirmation bias, wishful thinking, overgeneralisation, hindsight bias and so on. The list is very long.

People can get defensive when asked for evidence to back up their opinions such as:


1 out of 50 teachers are genuinely interested in teaching


For instance, they may accuse you of immaturity and nitpicking simply because you asked them to prove what they said is correct. They will say stuff like:


I graduated recently and therefor consider myself a decent source of information regarding the teaching methods in my region.


They may consider that this is the case. But it is not so – thay are a biased, selective source of information about the teaching methods that they have personally experienced or found out about second hand. Which is relatively limited.

In short Canuck: anecdotes don't cut it. Just like your anecdote about Scratch that was casually disproved once we had examined the evidence. If you want to talk more about evidence based research and logical fallacies let's take it off the forums. :D

Personal experience is enough of a source, your logic is essentially based on weather or not I am a credible source, I state the truth for my specific school/district unless you can prove otherwise.


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Vindicator
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:27 pm

From the looks  of what I am reading in this thread it looks like it has become a flaming thread. LOL

to identify flaming thread,

Step 1 excessive quoting.

step 2 words like evidence.

step 3 has little to nothing left to do with original topic of thread LOL.

step 4 they will actually bother to flame this post.
If you are more worried about ,spelling, punctuation or grammar you have probably already missed the point so please just move on.

Canuck
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:31 pm

Apparently editing is disabled so I can't fix my post mangled in with the quote. Oh well.

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scep
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:41 pm

Canuck said:

Personal experience is enough of a source,
No, it's not. I made it quite clear why that is the case. Especially when you are making ludicrous claims like: most IT techs only know Office and Windows networking or that only 2% of teachers are interested in teaching.

 I state the truth for my specific school/district unless you can prove otherwise.
But in post 113 you said:

Your method/logic in use for nitpicking posts is rather immature and comparable to "god is real unless you prove me wrong" argument. If you're going to nitpick without backing up your side of the argument why reply?
<immature>Do you see what you did?  Do ya?! Do ya?!! </immature>

Now that's an argument to ignorance! Well done! :D

Now, as I asked, let's take this off-forum please.

bradburts
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:43 pm

Yes, getting a bit confussing again.

But I bet that we can all agree with the foundation's goal:


But we felt that we could try to do something about the situation where computers had become so expensive and arcane that programming experimentation on them had to be forbidden by parents; and to find a platform that, like those old home computers, could boot into a programming environment.


Even if that is VBA in Libre Office :)

And I am quite happy with the concept of the Pi being an experimentor's toy.

Just as long as he/she is in education and/or the experimentor's work inspires someone in that age group.

Come on guys its Christmas.

(you can pick a fight with me there, its advent......)

Damm the maths here is hard!

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scep
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:54 pm

Merry Christmas Bradburts! :D

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riffraff
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:41 am

RE: Microsoft Monopoly

You can make arguments both ways. It's like that scene from Fiddler on the Roof – "On one hand, on the the other hand, on the other hand… there is no 'other hand'' !"

I just kinda cringed when I saw a topic on here "UK Students to be Taught Computer Programming" with Microsoft mentioned in the text.

Understand that in the historical context, Apple or Microsoft roles in these partnerships are more akin to poaching than preaching. It's sort of a twisted take on Proverbs 22:6 – "Train up a child in the the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it." In other words, train them using your products, and when they get out in the work-a-day world, they continue to use and promote your products.

What you NEVER want to do is to train them well enough to become Engineers. You then run the risk that they may one day compete with you.

So, in the end, the best you will end up with is form of enhanced ICT that produces competent CSE's in the way that Driver's Education produces better drivers, but not mechanics or auto designers.

P.S.

I will consider the project a raving success on the day that young student uses his/her RasPi to create a spambot with an AI component sufficiently powerful to "Do Math to Post".

jsclarke
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:21 pm

I only discovered this project about 3 hours ago and I'm inspired!

Whilst my initial interest was sparked by the small size, and presumably power consumption, of this board (I'm interested in low power computing) I can now see that the overall aims of the project are excellent.

I began my computing (I am not a professional) at school in the 70's on an anonymous black box with telly and cassette recorder. I can still remember the wonder of being able to actually programme a computer!!! It is one of the events of my life that taught me that the fact that something seems impossible doesn't mean it is.

I went on to mess around with mates with the Commodore 64 and BBC micro at school and of course the ZX80/81and Spectrum at home. I subsequently gained interests in other areas!? and returned to computers in the early 90's with Macs at the local school. By then the hardware had been concealed beneath the OS and it took me about 10 years, mainly inspired by indignance at being shut out, to dig back down to a low level. Had it not been for GNU/Linux, and open source software in general, I doubt it would have been possible.

The possibilities of this project make  me some of that excitement again. If it could do the same for the young that would be a great thing.

One of the reasons that big corporations can exert such a great influence on society is because they provide products - in this case mostly software -  which is closed source and which the vast majority of users just use with virtually no (or just no) understanding of what is happening at the level of the machine and therefore of how this relates to their, and indeed all of our, lives.

Anything which can be used to assist17 the next generation(s) into a situation where they have sufficient knowledge of the machines they are using to be able to make informed choices about how they use them and of the potential consequences must be a good thing.

bradburts
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:59 pm

Merry XMas scep & all!


I only discovered this project about 3 hours ago and I'm inspired!


Welcome on board! You're one of the lucky ones, you will only have to wait a few weeks for your board!


Whilst my initial interest was sparked by the small size, and presumably power consumption, of this board (I'm interested in low power computing)


Not very much idle, 1 or 2W full pelt. A lot of that is down to having to use cheaper regulators to keep costs to budget.

Whats your interest in low power computing? I hope to run a few green projects as well.

jsclarke
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:16 pm

Just hobby really, and an awareness of all the co2 that goes up there every day.

If we have that much computing power in a mobile phone I don't know why I am using boxes with 300 or 500W power supplies.

Also I love things with no moving parts!

Prometheus
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Re: How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:57 pm

riFFraFF said:

P.S.
I will consider the project a raving success on the day that young student uses his/her RasPi to create a spambot with an AI component sufficiently powerful to "Do Math to Post".


That sounds like a challenge! You should make a competition thread for it. :P

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