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Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:33 am
by Psypro
Pro
Better performance then raspberry Pi2
Much lower price then raspberry Pi2
Android support with GPU hw acceleration (if I understand correctly)

Con
Kickstarter, unknown ability to deliver
Not big community like Raspberry

http://pine64.com/product

I had hopped Raspberry PI would make a real desktop arm board, at a great price. I welcome Pine64+ and hope Raspberry will make plans for a Raspberry PI3 with similar spec and price point.

19$ is rather cool price for what you get...

Dream for raspberry Pi3.
At the $35 "premium price" over 2x the price of Pine64, one would expect rather cool hardware.
Add quad core arm 64 bit cpu
Better GPU (with hw acclaration for Raspbian/android)
4GB ram
Sata
(Bios like system, so one could install OS with ease, like with x86 / 96boards.org spec for ARM boards)
********************************************
Update :
"Watch Out Raspberry Pi, Here Comes The Pine A64"
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pine-a ... 30724.html

"The Pine A64 Is A $15 High-Performance Raspberry Pi Alternative"
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/11484 ... native.htm

I have backed the kick starter for Pine64, and I will buy several boards.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:38 am
by fruitoftheloom
Psypro wrote:Pro
Better performance then raspberry Pi2
Much lower price then raspberry Pi2
Android support with GPU hw acceleration (if I understand correctly)

Con
Kickstarter, unknown ability to deliver
Not big community like Raspberry

http://pine64.com/product

I had hopped Raspberry PI would make a real desktop arm board, at a great price. I welcome Pine64+ and hope Raspberry will make plans for a Raspberry PI3 with similar spec and price point.

19$ is rather cool price for what you get...

Dream for raspberry Pi3.
At the $35 "premium price" over 2x the price of Pine64, one would expect rather cool hardware.
Add quad core arm 64 bit cpu
Better GPU (with hw acclaration for Raspbian/android)
4GB ram
Sata
(Bios like system, so one could install OS with ease, like with x86 / 96boards.org spec for ARM boards)

Yes it has already been posted about: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=128016

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:26 pm
by expandables
Yea you forgot to mention it needs to be edible. :lol:
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:42 pm
by W. H. Heydt
Psypro wrote:Pro
Better performance then raspberry Pi2
Much lower price then raspberry Pi2
Android support with GPU hw acceleration (if I understand correctly)
Two other differences...
The Pi2B is available NOW. (PINE64 hasn't even started their KS campaign.)
The base model has 512MB...the same as the $5 Pi Zero.

Bear in mind that a requirement for a KS campaign is that a working prototype exists. Being generous and assuming that step has been accomplished, then there will be the KS campaign, and then a potentially longish wait for actual product. Note, for instance the CHIP, which--assuming delivery is on time--will be basically a year from start of KS campaign to the delivery of the boards promised at the announced price...with later orders not arriving until June. If PINE64 follows that time line, figure KS from this coming week--they've said 9 December--until early February with the main deliveries taking place in early 2017.

Anyone want to place bets on what Eben can pull out of his hat in another year?

This is not to disparage the PINE64, but to throw a little reality into the mix. I will probably go in for one of the 64+ models, as I think that 512MB RAM will "starve" a quad-core 64-bit system. Even with 1GB RAM, it will be a bit thin on memory. Compare the Lemon/Roseapple Pi that are now promising/shipping with 2GB. (Last word I had from the Lemon Pi folks is that they will actually ship Roseapple Pis to those that supported the Lemon Pi IGG campaign. I may get mine in time for Xmas...maybe.)

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:01 pm
by jamesh
It appears that Allwinner are flooding the market in an attempt to gain lots of market share. I suspect that they are practically giving the SoC's away to these KS campaigns, I certainly cannot see how these devices can be made for this money (see the CHIP as well).

Allwinner chips are real bargain basement designs, simply cut and pasted libraries direct from ARM. Which is fine, they do the job. That's why they are cheap.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:05 pm
by expandables
(Last word I had from the Lemon Pi folks is that they will actually ship Roseapple Pis to those that supported the Lemon Pi IGG campaign. I may get mine in time for Xmas...maybe.)
I'm going to make my own board and name it "EAT PI" :lol: :roll:
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:13 pm
by W. H. Heydt
jamesh wrote:It appears that Allwinner are flooding the market in an attempt to gain lots of market share. I suspect that they are practically giving the SoC's away to these KS campaigns, I certainly cannot see how these devices can be made for this money (see the CHIP as well).

Allwinner chips are real bargain basement designs, simply cut and pasted libraries direct from ARM. Which is fine, they do the job. That's why they are cheap.
It's certainly a time honored business model, and it works right up until the race to the bottom crashes and burns. The cost of the Pi0 suggests that Broadcom can make chips for damned little as well, so it's really unclear how far down Allwinner can go and stay in business. It's also unclear how well the "companies" "making" the SBCs are going to bring in enough to be viable companies. Then there is the elephant in the room...how is software development and support going to funded?

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:40 pm
by fruitoftheloom
W. H. Heydt wrote:
jamesh wrote:It appears that Allwinner are flooding the market in an attempt to gain lots of market share. I suspect that they are practically giving the SoC's away to these KS campaigns, I certainly cannot see how these devices can be made for this money (see the CHIP as well).

Allwinner chips are real bargain basement designs, simply cut and pasted libraries direct from ARM. Which is fine, they do the job. That's why they are cheap.
It's certainly a time honored business model, and it works right up until the race to the bottom crashes and burns. The cost of the Pi0 suggests that Broadcom can make chips for damned little as well, so it's really unclear how far down Allwinner can go and stay in business. It's also unclear how well the "companies" "making" the SBCs are going to bring in enough to be viable companies. Then there is the elephant in the room...how is software development and support going to funded?
Makes one wonder what ARM Licence AllWinner have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_archi ... #Licensing

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:29 pm
by stderr
Psypro wrote:At the $35 "premium price" over 2x the price of Pine64, one would expect rather cool hardware.
Add quad core arm 64 bit cpu
They cannot just make something at some price point without the materials priced at the needed price points being available. If you want 64 bit, that's pretty recent in ARM, at least in widely used ARM. I'm also not sure that 64 bit and 1 gig is a good thing. I know that ARM has gone to some trouble to reduce the instruction code size with its tiny subset mode, so these are real issues. I feel that half a gig on 64 bit is, to be serious, ridiculous.

Regarding the price, the pi has been available in the US through distribution at exactly the stated price (the pi zero not yet). That means that the RP2 is really available at $35 including shipping (after spending at least a certain amount on an order). That apparently isn't the case with the Pine products which may have rather absurd shipping and "handling" charges. I do not know if they'll sell multiple boards with a single "handling" charge. These are questions that need to be answered when product is actually available.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:47 am
by feverish
Being a bit ancient and with poor eyesight, I don't try any more to keep up with the absolute latest alleged advances in applied technology but the Pine64, of which, thanks to you, I have now some information, which seems more to indicate a hope than a promise. When and if this actually comes to market (in, what, 18 months to two years' time?), would you kindly bring this again to attention so we old dodderers don't miss out, provided we live that long?

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:58 am
by expandables
feverish wrote:Being a bit ancient and with poor eyesight, I don't try any more to keep up with the absolute latest alleged advances in applied technology but the Pine64, of which, thanks to you, I have now some information, which seems more to indicate a hope than a promise. When and if this actually comes to market (in, what, 18 months to two years' time?), would you kindly bring this again to attention so we old dodderers don't miss out, provided we live that long?
How old are you? You might live to see my board i'll create called "Eat PI"
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:05 am
by stderr
expandables wrote:How old are you? You might live to see my board i'll create called "Eat PI" :twisted:
Since Musk and Dell and others with billions are working on ways to extend lives, if we can just live a few more years, perhaps you are correct and we'll live that long. Of course also watching the sun expand into a red giant and engulf the earth in its plasma burning everything to char and then vapour might not be worth it.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:51 am
by expandables
stderr wrote:
expandables wrote:How old are you? You might live to see my board i'll create called "Eat PI" :twisted:
Since Musk and Dell and others with billions are working on ways to extend lives, if we can just live a few more years, perhaps you are correct and we'll live that long. Of course also watching the sun expand into a red giant and engulf the earth in its plasma burning everything to char and then vapour might not be worth it.
AH A supernova. PS I love science! :D
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:56 am
by expandables
The Sun is not "going to blow up" but hey I would love to live to see 7 billion years from now :D
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:08 am
by W. H. Heydt
The more I look into the specs, the more I'm convinced that this isn't all that powerful a board. The A53 cores are mostly single dispatch and are the low end of the ARMv8 spectrum. The clock speed (1.2GHz) is...okay, but it's not exciting as there are a bunch of other boards out there at around that speed. (The Roseapple Pi is close to that, though it's a 32-bit processor, but it has a USB3 port, which the PINE does not.) I'm not the only person to think that 1GB RAM is a rather low for a board with these specs.

About the only things really interesting about these boards are the move 64-bit and the price.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:36 pm
by feverish
expandables wrote: How old are you? You might live to see my board i'll create called "Eat PI"
:twisted:
84 and counting, so don't delay :-)

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:43 pm
by fruitoftheloom
W. H. Heydt wrote:The more I look into the specs, the more I'm convinced that this isn't all that powerful a board. The A53 cores are mostly single dispatch and are the low end of the ARMv8 spectrum. The clock speed (1.2GHz) is...okay, but it's not exciting as there are a bunch of other boards out there at around that speed. (The Roseapple Pi is close to that, though it's a 32-bit processor, but it has a USB3 port, which the PINE does not.) I'm not the only person to think that 1GB RAM is a rather low for a board with these specs.

About the only things really interesting about these boards are the move 64-bit and the price.
Both AllWinner & Rockachip & AmLogic ARM SoC seems to be low performance compared to headline "marketing" specification..

Samsung SoC seem better but pricier as seen in the http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php

So it really comes down to what you want and need :D

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:39 pm
by W. H. Heydt
fruitoftheloom wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:The more I look into the specs, the more I'm convinced that this isn't all that powerful a board. The A53 cores are mostly single dispatch and are the low end of the ARMv8 spectrum. The clock speed (1.2GHz) is...okay, but it's not exciting as there are a bunch of other boards out there at around that speed. (The Roseapple Pi is close to that, though it's a 32-bit processor, but it has a USB3 port, which the PINE does not.) I'm not the only person to think that 1GB RAM is a rather low for a board with these specs.

About the only things really interesting about these boards are the move 64-bit and the price.
Both AllWinner & Rockachip & AmLogic ARM SoC seems to be low performance compared to headline "marketing" specification..

Samsung SoC seem better but pricier as seen in the http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php

So it really comes down to what you want and need :D
Entirely too many years ago, when people found out that I dealt with computers, I would get asked when they should buy one (this was before ubiquitous PCs). My advice was, when a machine that has the capability you want crosses the price you're willing to pay, then buy it.

I think we're seeing something similar now. When the features you want appear on a board whose price matches your pocket change, get one.

What will be interesting to see about the PINE boards will be how the KS campaign goes. If it takes off, that will suggest that there may be a market for cheap 64-bit boards and Eben might design one...and one that is better, cheaper, or both.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:21 pm
by stderr
W. H. Heydt wrote:Entirely too many years ago, when people found out that I dealt with computers, I would get asked when they should buy one (this was before ubiquitous PCs). My advice was, when a machine that has the capability you want crosses the price you're willing to pay, then buy it.
We dreamt of the day when we could buy a hard drive that would be 1000meg at $1000. Didn't matter if it was a full height 5.25" tub either, that was the point where it crossed into buy. Seems rather insane now.
I think we're seeing something similar now. When the features you want appear on a board whose price matches your pocket change, get one.
Except there are so many boards and there are issues, such as what happens if you've got a weird board that is orphaned by its now gone maker? PC stuff was slavishly compatible, that's not true with ARM. Goofy GPUs abound.
What will be interesting to see about the PINE boards will be how the KS campaign goes. If it takes off, that will suggest that there may be a market for cheap 64-bit boards and Eben might design one...and one that is better, cheaper, or both.
What is the reason for 64 bit? Either it's because you want to address more memory in a more efficient fashion or it's that you want to do 64 bit maths, double-precision floating point and integer. But these boards have little memory and can't be upgraded. On a PC don't they usually tell you to stick with 32 bit until you've got at least 2 gig of RAM? So this ARM 64 bit starts out as a cheap 512meg board. 512meg is pretty unusable with X no matter how you go about it.

I'd love to know what is keeping the ARM CPUs down at a GHz. I know some are mid and even approaching 2 GHz but that is hardly common. You'd think they could make 2 GHz now without even trying, given you are willing to use actively cooling. Is that the issue, you need a fan?

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:02 pm
by W. H. Heydt
stderr wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Entirely too many years ago, when people found out that I dealt with computers, I would get asked when they should buy one (this was before ubiquitous PCs). My advice was, when a machine that has the capability you want crosses the price you're willing to pay, then buy it.
We dreamt of the day when we could buy a hard drive that would be 1000meg at $1000. Didn't matter if it was a full height 5.25" tub either, that was the point where it crossed into buy. Seems rather insane now.
At one time I worked for a medium-largeish chemical company. For a couple of months in the Summer, I would spend my time at the company's research facility. One chemist got permission to add an HDD to his IBM PC. He had a budget limit of $1000. He was absolutely ecstatic when he found a discounted introductory deal on a new drive: 15MB for $985. Times have changed a bit...
I think we're seeing something similar now. When the features you want appear on a board whose price matches your pocket change, get one.
Except there are so many boards and there are issues, such as what happens if you've got a weird board that is orphaned by its now gone maker? PC stuff was slavishly compatible, that's not true with ARM. Goofy GPUs abound.
There is that. At least the boards are cheap enough that you can toss them when/if they get orphaned. Actually...that's one of the things I really like about the Pi. If a model gets scarce, it's probably because there is, or is about to be, an improved version or new model, and the new board is compatible with the old one. I do seem to be accumulating oddball boards that I test and end by saying something on the order of "it's all very well but the software is excessively buggy and I don't think I'll get any more of them." Oddly enough, the non-Pi boards I'm actually using on an ongoing basis (Cubieboard 1/2) are running....Raspbian. If a device I have on order (a special carrier board for the CM) pans out, then as soon as a CM2 shows up, the Cubieboards will be replaced with Pis, in the form of CM2 boards, and the whole setup will be nothing but Pis (and if everything goes as planned, it will include a Pi0 as an NTP server).
What will be interesting to see about the PINE boards will be how the KS campaign goes. If it takes off, that will suggest that there may be a market for cheap 64-bit boards and Eben might design one...and one that is better, cheaper, or both.
What is the reason for 64 bit? Either it's because you want to address more memory in a more efficient fashion or it's that you want to do 64 bit maths, double-precision floating point and integer. But these boards have little memory and can't be upgraded. On a PC don't they usually tell you to stick with 32 bit until you've got at least 2 gig of RAM? So this ARM 64 bit starts out as a cheap 512meg board. 512meg is pretty unusable with X no matter how you go about it.
I suspect a big part of the efforts to go to 64-bit is simply PC envy. PCs are 64-bit, therefore no one will take an SBC seriously until SBCs are running 64-bit SoCs. Essentially, it's a marketing ploy. On the other hand, if you want to do some serious work with an SBC, then going 64-bit if only to be able to have more--a lot more--RAM would make sense. And that comes back to the "WTF?" feeling about the 512MB PINE64, and the 1GB PINE64+ isn't all *that* much better. Especially in light of the boards mentioned previously that are 32-bit with 2GB RAM. The small amount of RAM on the PINE boards is probably a cost issue.
I'd love to know what is keeping the ARM CPUs down at a GHz. I know some are mid and even approaching 2 GHz but that is hardly common. You'd think they could make 2 GHz now without even trying, given you are willing to use actively cooling. Is that the issue, you need a fan?
At a guess? Heat. Faster clock means more energy to dissipate as heat. Note that the packages don't even have heat spreaders, and some boards (e.g. Odroid-C1+ and--I think--Roseapple Pi) come with heatsinks for the SoC. This is the same track PCs went down. Bare packages, heat sinks, fans and now high performance PCs are frequently using liquid cooling loops. This is not, really, a clock speed issue. The Odroid-C1 and C1+ run at 1.5GHz, but they use very small, very low power cores. That's why a C1 at 1.5GHz is only about 20% faster than a 700MHz Pi Model B. As the B+ Pis start defaulting to 1GHz, the C1 is going to look much less impressive, despite the high clock rate.

Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:39 pm
by expandables
Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.
Don't worry "EAT PI" will have all of that.
:twisted:

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:25 am
by DougieLawson
expandables wrote:
Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.
Don't worry "EAT PI" will have all of that.
:twisted:
And ponies.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:17 am
by W. H. Heydt
DougieLawson wrote:
expandables wrote:
Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.
Don't worry "EAT PI" will have all of that.
:twisted:
And ponies.
Sandwiches? Wheels?

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:33 am
by stderr
expandables wrote:
Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.
Don't worry "EAT PI" will have all of that.
:twisted:
Of course it will, but sadly when general availability is the heat death the universe, there'll be nothing to power it with.

Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:10 am
by W. H. Heydt
stderr wrote:
expandables wrote:
Or course, I *would* like to see a cheap 64-bit, 2+GHz, 4+GB board with passive cooling...but I'm not hold my breath waiting.
Don't worry "EAT PI" will have all of that.
:twisted:
Of course it will, but sadly when general availability is the heat death the universe, there'll be nothing to power it with.
Just ask the UniversalAC if entropy can be reversed.