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GTR2Fan
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:31 am

RaTTuS wrote:
ric96 wrote:With the pi3 released, was the pine 64 too little too soon?
not to those that want 2G RAM :roll:
According to the Pine64 Kickstarter page, you're looking at $29 for the 2GB version of the Pine64+. I'd rather learn how to program properly (ie, not wastefully in terms of required RAM) and keep the support offered by the Pi community than risk going down a potential dead end that actively encourages sloppy programming.

Each to their own though.
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:11 pm

timrowledge,
Smalltalk, Lisp, Prolog(?) have had better ways of handling the issue for a very, very, long time. Simple integer values, floats, complex, very large
integers ... all dealt with in a nice unifying framework.
Sadly none of those languages took off as explosively as many others.
You want a precise value for 453 factorial? Try doing that with only 64 bit float representation.
No problem. Just use a big number library, like one does in C/C++ whatever. The only language in common use that can do that is Python.
C makes life very unpleasant but at least tries to do something close to reasonable for integer/float issues. Of course it completely screws us for signed unsigned stuff, though given that they forgot to make pointers something separate to numbers I guess it had to be that way.
I'm not sure I follow you. C is about the simplest abstraction over common machine architecture features that you can have that enables the creation of portable code. As such C is great.

I don't ever recall having much of a problem with signed, unsigned or pointers in C. Do you have an example of what is bugging you there?
Whilst I think that is daft, it doesn't alter the fact that JS can be used to do some impressive things, including, by the way, writing a VM to run Smalltalk.
Yes! Now you got it.

I was just playing with this kind of thing: I took a compiler for the Spin language, this compiler is written in C++, and "transpiled" it to Javascript using Emscripten. The end result being that we could compile Spin in the browser and start building a browser based IDE for Spin around it.

Amazingly the performance of this was in the "useful ball park". About half the speed of the natively compiled C++.

There are all kind of languages being transpiled or targeting Javascript now.

jahboater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:20 pm

Heater wrote:
C makes life very unpleasant but at least tries to do something close to reasonable for integer/float issues. Of course it completely screws us for signed unsigned stuff, though given that they forgot to make pointers something separate to numbers I guess it had to be that way.
I'm not sure I follow you. C is about the simplest abstraction over common machine architecture features that you can have that enables the creation of portable code. As such C is great.

I don't ever recall having much of a problem with signed, unsigned or pointers in C. Do you have an example of what is bugging you there?
+1!
I stopped thinking of pointers and integers as the same when I stopped using B about 35 years ago.
There is intptr_t and uintptr_t I suppose.

stderr
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:36 pm

Heater wrote: C is about the simplest abstraction over common machine architecture features that you can have that enables the creation of portable code. As such C is great.
There is C--

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C--

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:42 pm

Cool.

C-- is not designed for humans to use though.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:20 pm

Heater wrote:
I don't ever recall having much of a problem with signed, unsigned or pointers in C. Do you have an example of what is bugging you there?
If you can, with hand on heart, swear that you've never written any code where something that the compiler thinks of as a signed int gets used as a pointer, or any of the other possible confusions, then I am very, very, impressed.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

jahboater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:53 pm

Do you mean something like this?

Code: Select all

int count = 0;
*count = 42;
Which produces the error "error: invalid type argument of unary '*' (have 'int')". So we try

Code: Select all

*(int*)count = 42;
which produces "warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size" (its 64-bits). So we then try

Code: Select all

int64_t count = 0; 
*(int*)count = 42;
and that is accepted.
You have to try very hard to make such a mistake.

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:08 am

timrowledge,
If you can, with hand on heart, swear that you've never written any code where something that the compiler thinks of as a signed int gets used as a pointer, or any of the other possible confusions, then I am very, very, impressed.
You mean like:

Code: Select all

    // x is a signed integer
    int x = 42;

    // y is a pointer to a signed integer, points at x
    int *y = &x;

    // z is a signed integer. Let's give it a pointer value. BAD
    int z = y;

    // Lets use the signed integer z as a pointer. BAD
    printf("%d\n", *z);
The statements marked "BAD" above produce the compile errors:

Code: Select all

$ gcc  bad.c
hello.c: In function ‘main’:
hello.c:12:13: warning: initialization makes integer from pointer without a cast
     int z = y;
             ^
hello.c:15:20: error: invalid type argument of unary ‘*’ (have ‘int’)
     printf("%d\n", *z);
All in all you have to try hard to make the errors you are suggesting.

Admittedly one can find oneself passing weird structs around via void pointers and the having to be careful about what the void pointer is actually pointing to. For example in the use of pthread_create:

Code: Select all

int pthread_create(pthread_t *thread, const pthread_attr_t *attr,
                          void *(*start_routine) (void *), void *arg);
Things are much better than back in the day when C compilers for the PC would compile pretty much any line noise I threw at them :)
Last edited by Heater on Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:46 pm

Time for an update....

The PINE64 is a victim of its own success. They expected to have to produce 10K to 15K boards (note that this is less that *one*days* production of Pis) to be delivered over 3 months, or about 5K boards per month. The KS campaign called for 45K boards (three days of production of Pis at Pencoed). They're struggling and shipments are being delayed (not atypical of KS campaigns). They also have the slight problem that the bottom end board (512MB, $15) costs....$15 to make, leaving nothing to cover overhead, let alone profit.

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:02 pm

Just realized my example above of using a integer as a pointer in C was wrong. I fixed it up now.

plugwash
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:36 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Time for an update....

The PINE64 is a victim of its own success. They expected to have to produce 10K to 15K boards (note that this is less that *one*days* production of Pis) to be delivered over 3 months, or about 5K boards per month. The KS campaign called for 45K boards (three days of production of Pis at Pencoed). They're struggling and shipments are being delayed (not atypical of KS campaigns). They also have the slight problem that the bottom end board (512MB, $15) costs....$15 to make, leaving nothing to cover overhead, let alone profit.
hmm, there seems to be a paucity of information for those of us who bought post-kickstarter. Nothing on the news page of the pine64 site and the kickstarter updates are locked to kickstarter backers only.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:25 pm

plugwash wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Time for an update....

The PINE64 is a victim of its own success. They expected to have to produce 10K to 15K boards (note that this is less that *one*days* production of Pis) to be delivered over 3 months, or about 5K boards per month. The KS campaign called for 45K boards (three days of production of Pis at Pencoed). They're struggling and shipments are being delayed (not atypical of KS campaigns). They also have the slight problem that the bottom end board (512MB, $15) costs....$15 to make, leaving nothing to cover overhead, let alone profit.
hmm, there seems to be a paucity of information for those of us who bought post-kickstarter. Nothing on the news page of the pine64 site and the kickstarter updates are locked to kickstarter backers only.
Fortunately (for some values of "fortunate"), I did back the KS campaign. Here is the guts of the latest update (there is some more, but this covers the essence of it):
First things first. When we set out to build a single board computer at $15-$29, we were set out to create a community of developers and help bring a $15 computer to the masses (note that it costs us $15 to make them), to be introduced to education, developers, innovators, and more. from a simple sub $50,000 goal to create our first batch of boards and with a mental preparation that we will probably sell no more than 5000-10,000 boards, became a campaign that sold over 45,000 boards collectively in less than 50 days. Now, what does this mean? We had put a February/ March / April delivery date because we know that we are able to deliver our expected amount, and to date, we have shipped over 10,000 boards. Now to delay issues..

Imagine if someone tasked you to run to the supermarket to buy them 10 cases of drinks because they have 100 people coming over for a party, so you took your minivan and went to the store to by 10 cases of drinks. When you are there, they called you and said nevermind, they misread the number. it was actually 10,000 people attending, and now then need 1000 cases of drinks. You're there by yourself with a miniman, how can you physically bring 1000 cases back by that night?

Not the best anology but same thing goes goes with a restaurant. If your restaurant is prepping for 100 diners, but 10,000 show up, what happens?

We've put in as much measures as we can to expect an overload of orders, but not THIS much in this amount of time. instead of waiting on the funds to be transferred, we mortgaged our houses to pre-pay and prepare for the worse.

Some of the worst included people showing up at our office threatening to kill us if they didn't get their board. (this resulted in an arrest). he had pledged $22.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:25 am

Sounds like most kickstarters, lack of business acumen, and worthy goals that turn out are unobtainable/unsustainable because of that lack.

Quite amazing that (rather like Dragons Den) people don't seem to actually do 'the numbers' before trying to do something like this.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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RaTTuS
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:54 am

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

iain1970
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:55 pm

My Pine64+ 2Gb turned up in the post today. I think the Pi3 was released a fortnight after I pledged, so I was a bit miffed, but nevermind.

No idea what I'm going to do with it! I'm no programmer or coder, so rely on the fruits of other folks' labour. Something will crop up.

stderr
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:07 pm

iain1970 wrote:No idea what I'm going to do with it! I'm no programmer or coder, so rely on the fruits of other folks' labour. Something will crop up.
Do a test with firefox on it, or iceweasel, whichever, and see how it is over ssh -X. I'd be interested in knowing how acceptable or not it is for various web uses. Add a few users, start up several different copies of the browser and see how that works. I suspect that 2gig will really help with a lot of tabs open.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:47 pm

iain1970 wrote:My Pine64+ 2Gb turned up in the post today. I think the Pi3 was released a fortnight after I pledged, so I was a bit miffed, but nevermind.

No idea what I'm going to do with it! I'm no programmer or coder, so rely on the fruits of other folks' labour. Something will crop up.
KS campaign closed on 23 January, if the message posts are accurate. It certainly didn't close any later than that. The Pi3B launched 29 February. Therefore, you backed the PINE64 KS at least five weeks prior to the Pi3B launch. Calling that "a fortnight" is rather more than just a stretch.

iain1970
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:57 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:KS campaign closed on 23 January, if the message posts are accurate. It certainly didn't close any later than that. The Pi3B launched 29 February. Therefore, you backed the PINE64 KS at least five weeks prior to the Pi3B launch. Calling that "a fortnight" is rather more than just a stretch.
Good job I didn't present my "evidence" on Judge Judy!

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:08 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:The PINE64 is a victim of its own success. They expected to have to produce 10K to 15K boards (note that this is less that *one*days* production of Pis) to be delivered over 3 months, or about 5K boards per month. The KS campaign called for 45K boards (three days of production of Pis at Pencoed). They're struggling and shipments are being delayed (not atypical of KS campaigns). They also have the slight problem that the bottom end board (512MB, $15) costs....$15 to make, leaving nothing to cover overhead, let alone profit.
Sounds a lot like the Pi Zero, and the original Pi was a similar victim of its own success.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:59 am

Esteemed Forum Participants and Lurkers:
===================================
Just got a Pine 64 on Sat (04/09) and have played with it a bit. The software is in a messy state of disarray, so it will be really confusing for newbies. The Pi has had pretty decent software support all along. After wading through all the confusion I was actually surprised at how easy burning Android actually tured out to be. I don't particularly like Android - Linux is my preference by far. Also, it took me nearly an hour to figure out how to safely shutdown the system - you have to either install the provided pushbutton, or short a jumper between the "Power" switch pads. In my opinion it was a gross oversight not to have included a "shutdown" app on the desktop, and I couldn't find any text editor at all.

A fine gentleman and scholar who goes by "longsleep" on the pine forum has graciously provided an image file for Arch Linux that, once I figured it out, was totally trivial to burn, and it booted right up into a command-line only system. He does warn that the minimalist system is targeted toward developers. It took me several hours, but I did manage to find and download the package files for Python and for GCC (Arch is a bit different from my normal Mint systems), and I ran my first Python demo program today.

So, the Pine 64 is indeed alive, but for me, it is nowhere near all the extra work it has taken to get barely demo software running which is nowhere near a useable and productive OS. Prompt software development will be what makes or breaks the Pine 64.

Blessings in abundance, all the best, & ENJOY!
Art in Carlisle PA USA
Blessings in abundance, all the best, & ENJOY!
Art in Carlisle PA, USA

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:24 am

webtest wrote: Prompt software development will be what makes or breaks the Pine 64.
Yes; I'm looking forward to taking part in that... and your post is encouraging. The Pine64 is basically tablet guts; and once it gets going it will be able to leverage the gazillion apps on the play-store. But, I am also interested in leveraging the arch-linux footprint too.

My dev board will be here in May (Lord willing and the creeks don't rise). I plan to add it to my plethora of iddy bitty computers (but, I agree they have a long way to go). I wish them the best.
marcus
:ugeek:

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:43 am

webtest wrote: I don't particularly like Android - Linux is my preference by far.
Android uses a Linux Kernel, so can you state "Android versus Distro", that would make much more sense :shock:
Retired disgracefully.....

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:29 am

fruitoftheloom,
Android uses a Linux Kernel, so can you state "Android versus Distro", that would make much more sense
We hear this a lot around the net and I sort of agree. It would be better if "Linux" referred to only the kernel.

However...

When Linux Torvalds first made his creation public it was a package that contained a kernel and user space programs including bash and gcc. The name "Linux" was given to all this by Ari Lemmke when he put it up on the FTP servers.

So we see that "Linux" has always been a complete usable operating system that happened to contain a kernel, known as "The Linux Kernel".

"Linux" was a "distro" from the beginning. Those many "distros" we have today are just more of the same. Distros are Linux,

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:36 am

Heater wrote:fruitoftheloom,
Android uses a Linux Kernel, so can you state "Android versus Distro", that would make much more sense
We hear this a lot around the net and I sort of agree. It would be better if "Linux" referred to only the kernel.

However...

When Linux Torvalds first made his creation public it was a package that contained a kernel and user space programs including bash and gcc. The name "Linux" was given to all this by Ari Lemmke when he put it up on the FTP servers.

So we see that "Linux" has always been a complete usable operating system that happened to contain a kernel, known as "The Linux Kernel".

"Linux" was a "distro" from the beginning. Those many "distros" we have today are just more of the same. Distros are Linux,
Balderdash, poppycock, AND flap-doodle...

Oh, bubba, those are fighting words... especially to Richard M. Stallman (or any of his card carrying FSF members, like me).

'linux' has been, and always was, the GNU operating system + the Linux kernel. That has not changed in over 25 years (nor will it change).

Lemmke didn't name anything! (Linus Torvalds named the kernel, and Richard M. Stallman named GNU)

gnu+linux
marcus
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:53 am

Heater wrote:fruitoftheloom,
Android uses a Linux Kernel, so can you state "Android versus Distro", that would make much more sense
We hear this a lot around the net and I sort of agree. It would be better if "Linux" referred to only the kernel.

However...

When Linux Torvalds first made his creation public it was a package that contained a kernel and user space programs including bash and gcc. The name "Linux" was given to all this by Ari Lemmke when he put it up on the FTP servers.

So we see that "Linux" has always been a complete usable operating system that happened to contain a kernel, known as "The Linux Kernel".

"Linux" was a "distro" from the beginning. Those many "distros" we have today are just more of the same. Distros are Linux,
I was responding to his comparision, not the essence of whatever Linux is ie:

OSX vs NT10
or
Fedora vs Debian
or
RiscOS vs DRDOS

All I was asking was for clarification of what the * he was comparing running Android to.................. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Retired disgracefully.....

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