Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:05 am

2GB is more than enough for most things I want to do with an ARM SBC.

I can understand the limitations on bus width.

So is there really much point in going for a 64 bit CPU? What does it buy us?

Presumably it runs Javascript a lot faster. In JS all numbers are a 64 bit float.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:05 am

Oops, I managed to post the same thing twice. Can't delete the post I you get this message instead:)
Last edited by Heater on Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:50 pm

wdt wrote:>assuming the SoCs *can* address more than that amount of physical memory.).

32 bit address lines, Some other problem that makes max 3 gB
I bought for better io. 2 usb (controllers) and eth not usb bridged
I'm rather disappointed with having only 2 USB ports, though the rest of specs on the 2GB version are decent, or--at least--good enough.

The application I would *like* to use a board like this for requires 3 interfaces plus Ethernet. At least one of the 3 needs to be fairly fast. I have a Cubieboard 2 where one USB port goes to a KVM switch for keyboard and mouse, the second goes to a powered USB hub to support a CD/DVD burner and the board has a SATA port to which I have attached an SSD. I can't do that with the ortherwise decent PINE64 because it doesn't have a suitable interface to support an SSD. I understand that the Lemon/Roseapple Pi has a third USB connector that is USB 3.0. That's fast enough to make good use of an SSD.

There are several inexpensive boards out there that are each missing a part of puzzle, but no one has put the full package together. Maybe in a couple of years...

Ultimately what I am trying to replace with ARM SBCs is a system I built in 2003. It has dual Opteron 240 CPUs, nVidia 5200 GPU, 2GB ECC RAM and 3 36GB WD Raptor HDDs. The Opteron 240 chip is 64-bit and runs at 1.4GHz. Again, ARM SBCs are getting close, though there appears to be a practical limit at the moment of 1.2GHz for anything beyond the very simplest cores (e.g. A5 cores used for the Odroid-C! and C1+). Having 4 cores beats two independent processors, but my 12 year old system meets or exceeds the current boards, at least nominally (except for teh GPU, but that's not an issue). (I doubt that an inexpensive SBC will ever have ECC RAM and I only used that because it was a requirement for the Opteron chips I used. It's amusing look at that system and recall that the RAM *alone* cost $500 when it was built.

jamesh
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:13 pm

Heater wrote:2GB is more than enough for most things I want to do with an ARM SBC.

I can understand the limitations on bus width.

So is there really much point in going for a 64 bit CPU? What does it buy us?

Presumably it runs Javascript a lot faster. In JS all numbers are a 64 bit float.
You get about 15-30% speed improvement at the same clock speed with ARM64 IIRC. You also get a CPU that can go faster (1.5Ghz perhaps?)
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:12 pm

jamesh wrote:
Heater wrote:2GB is more than enough for most things I want to do with an ARM SBC.

I can understand the limitations on bus width.

So is there really much point in going for a 64 bit CPU? What does it buy us?

Presumably it runs Javascript a lot faster. In JS all numbers are a 64 bit float.
You get about 15-30% speed improvement at the same clock speed with ARM64 IIRC. You also get a CPU that can go faster (1.5Ghz perhaps?)
PINE64 folks are quoting 1.2GHz, which is the about the same as some of the 32-bit boards. The only one I've seen claim 1.5GHz was the Odroid-C1/C1+, which uses A5 cores. and the C1+ is supposed to come with a heat sink.

I'll grant that there are smart phones that are claiming at least 1.8GHz, but that's not with completely passive, air cooling.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:59 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
jamesh wrote:
Heater wrote:2GB is more than enough for most things I want to do with an ARM SBC.

I can understand the limitations on bus width.

So is there really much point in going for a 64 bit CPU? What does it buy us?

Presumably it runs Javascript a lot faster. In JS all numbers are a 64 bit float.
You get about 15-30% speed improvement at the same clock speed with ARM64 IIRC. You also get a CPU that can go faster (1.5Ghz perhaps?)
PINE64 folks are quoting 1.2GHz, which is the about the same as some of the 32-bit boards. The only one I've seen claim 1.5GHz was the Odroid-C1/C1+, which uses A5 cores. and the C1+ is supposed to come with a heat sink.

I'll grant that there are smart phones that are claiming at least 1.8GHz, but that's not with completely passive, air cooling.
It will depend on how good the silicon implementation is. Allwinner are not renowned in that respect.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: PINE64 folks are quoting 1.2GHz, which is the about the same as some of the 32-bit boards. The only one I've seen claim 1.5GHz was the Odroid-C1/C1+, which uses A5 cores. and the C1+ is supposed to come with a heat sink.

I'll grant that there are smart phones that are claiming at least 1.8GHz, but that's not with completely passive, air cooling.
It will depend on how good the silicon implementation is. Allwinner are not renowned in that respect.
Ah...damning with faint praise, so to speak.

That would imply that Actions, the people making the SoCs for the Lemon/Roseapple Pi are in a similar situation. The initial IGG campaign was talking about 1.5GHz, but the delivered boards are, apparently, 1.2GHz.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:59 pm

Heater wrote:So is there really much point in going for a 64 bit CPU? What does it buy us?

Presumably it runs Javascript a lot faster. In JS all numbers are a 64 bit float.
I was going to reply to your comment about JS numbers being all 64 bit floats with something like "don't be silly' and then I googled it - and wholly khao. It's true. That must be one of the most insane things I've seen since... I dunno; a Donald Trump quote? Then again, JS wasn't really originally intended as a general language so maybe it made some kind of sense once upon a time.

The more important point though is that a 64bit cpu buys you more than 64 bit numbers, usually. It's rare that you only get an increase in register size and memory bus width. The ARM 64 bit ISA is very different to the code we're used to; much more logically laid out, there are more registers, the float unit is no longer a co-processor, etc etc. You can deal in 64/32 bit words without problems and so you don't suddenly have lots of waste space due to doubling the size of everything in your data, nor are pointers suddenly all 64 bit.

I could easily (for certain unusual and amusing definitions of the word 'easily') write a Cog VM (for Squeak & therefore Scratch support) that used A64 instructions but didn't require any changes at all to the object memory layout. It would likely be somewhat faster at the same clock speed because of more registers, the faster FP, the better caching etc. Code that actually needed to move bulk data - scanning, copying, stuff used in garbage collection - would probably go more than 2x faster, assuming the hardware provided a 64 bit memory bus of course. That's not a given for an SoC intended for low-cost uses and IIRC the ARM64 stuff can handled various memory bus widths without problems.

The best reason for using a 64 bit ARM is that it is the future architecture, intended to be able to go faster, do more, heat up less and walk and chew gum at the same time.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

Heater
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:36 pm

timrowledge,
I was going to reply to your comment about JS numbers being all 64 bit floats with something like "don't be silly' and then I googled it - and wholly khao. It's true. That must be one of the most insane things I've seen since... I dunno; a Donald Trump quote? Then again, JS wasn't really originally intended as a general language so maybe it made some kind of sense once upon a time.
Have you really thought this through?

Back in the day languages, like C for example, had all kind of weird number types that were basically 8 bits, 16 bits, 32 bits and possibly 64 bits. Then they might have floating point types.

All of which are all about the machine I'm using rather that the language or the problem I'm trying to solve.

When I introduce a number into my high level program I really don't want to care if it fits it 8 bits or 16 or 32 or if it's a 32 bit or 64 bit float, or whatever. I just want a frikken number.

In the light of that idea, when Brendan Eich was designing Javascript he made the best possible decision. No confusion with 8, 16, 32 bit integers. Let's just go for the biggest number the machine can handle. 64 bit float. Which means you have a 53 bit integer for free. At a time when 32 bit ints were good.

A stroke of genius!

As for Donald Trump. If he becomes president I'm signing up for ISIS immediately.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:32 am

Heater wrote:timrowledge,
I was going to reply to your comment about JS numbers being all 64 bit floats with something like "don't be silly' and then I googled it - and wholly khao. It's true. That must be one of the most insane things I've seen since... I dunno; a Donald Trump quote? Then again, JS wasn't really originally intended as a general language so maybe it made some kind of sense once upon a time.
Have you really thought this through?

Back in the day languages, like C for example, had all kind of weird number types that were basically 8 bits, 16 bits, 32 bits and possibly 64 bits. Then they might have floating point types.

All of which are all about the machine I'm using rather that the language or the problem I'm trying to solve.

When I introduce a number into my high level program I really don't want to care if it fits it 8 bits or 16 or 32 or if it's a 32 bit or 64 bit float, or whatever. I just want a frikken number.

In the light of that idea, when Brendan Eich was designing Javascript he made the best possible decision. No confusion with 8, 16, 32 bit integers. Let's just go for the biggest number the machine can handle. 64 bit float. Which means you have a 53 bit integer for free. At a time when 32 bit ints were good.

A stroke of genius!

As for Donald Trump. If he becomes president I'm signing up for ISIS immediately.
Useful for high level language, no good for speed and memory optimisation, which is essential for embedded systems. Or indeed where you need access to specific data sizes (when scanning binary files for example).

C has always had floating point types btw.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:48 pm

jamesh,
Useful for high level language, no good for speed and memory optimisation, which is essential for embedded systems
True for the traditional embedded systems built with micro-controllers and such. But now we have tiny systems with hundreds of megs or gigs or RAM and speeds into the giga hertz.

Modern JS engines are within a gnats of C++ compiled to native code.

Not all embedded systems require lots of speed.
Or indeed where you need access to specific data sizes
JavaScript has typed arrays that cater for that.
Last edited by Heater on Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:21 pm

Heater wrote:jamesh,
Useful for high level language, no good for speed and memory optimisation, which is essential for embedded systems
True for the traditional embedded systems built with micro-controllers and such. But now we have tiny systems with hundreds of megs or gigs or RAM and speeds into the giga hertz.

Modern JS engines are with in a gnats of C++ compiled to native code.

Not all embedded systems require lots of speed.
Or indeed where you need access to specific data sizes
JavaScript has typed arrays that cater for that.
Modern embedded systems still need optimised code - generally anything that uses video uses a hat load of memory, so the rest of the code still needs to be careful (for example, the VC4 needs careful memory management).

As for JS being as fast as C++, nah, don't believe it in the general case. Any language with garbage collection has to, by definition, occasionally go off and do garbage collection. This knackers performance, because that's a lot of effort. Of course, many apps won't notice it, but some will. I presume you are talking about Javascript compiled to native code btw, not byte code or similar.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:48 pm

Heater wrote:timrowledge,
I was going to reply to your comment about JS numbers being all 64 bit floats with something like "don't be silly' and then I googled it - and wholly khao. It's true. That must be one of the most insane things I've seen since... I dunno; a Donald Trump quote? Then again, JS wasn't really originally intended as a general language so maybe it made some kind of sense once upon a time.
Have you really thought this through?
{snip}.
Hmm, let's see. Yup, thought that through along with a quite a few smart people about 40 years ago. Smalltalk, Lisp, Prolog(?) have had better ways of handling the issue for a very, very, long time. Simple integer values, floats, complex, very large integers ... all dealt with in a nice unifying framework. You want a precise value for 453 factorial? Try doing that with only 64 bit float representation.
A well designed system can do this stuff without making the poor programmer suffer the details. C makes life very unpleasant but at least tries to do something close to reasonable for integer/float issues. Of course it completely screws us for signed unsigned stuff, though given that they forgot to make pointers something separate to numbers I guess it had to be that way.
JS appears to have taken a view that might possibly have been sensible when it was created empty years ago as ECMAScript and reified it into a scheme that does not help for general computing. Whilst I think that is daft, it doesn't alter the fact that JS can be used to do some impressive things, including, by the way, writing a VM to run Smalltalk. See https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/

Oh, and james - garbage collection can be done in a great variety of ways and need not cause real-time issues. A long time ago (actually 20 years!) I worked for a Silicon Valley research lab on a realtime OS written in Squeak Smalltalk running on a byte code interpreter VM (actually an ancestor of the one provided on the Pi) on our own StrongARM hardware. We had everything down to cpu process swapping in Smalltalk code and the very lowest details in code mostly written within Smalltalk and parsed out as object code directly into memory. Since the system was controlling an isochronous home network running at 54MHz where we needed to be able to handle 245bit frames that meant something like 200kHz response capability. Our GC was a non-stopping continuous colouring... something or other I forget the terms for.
There are a number of very big companies using Smalltalk to control real-time systems; minor stuff like silicon chip production lines with all the monitoring etc required.
The GC systems can be threaded, or incremental, or.. many other options. It's a sizeable research field.
I've already explained how dynamic translation (which comes in various forms) makes worrying about when you're code gets converted from text/diagrams into machine as moot point, so I won't repeat myself again.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:25 pm

KS campaign has topped $1 million, so they've met the stretch goal to add a provision for a power switch.

Looks like they're going to come in modestly under 30K backers, and would suggest they'll need to make about 35K boards to meet the KS needs. So...not "1 million in 30 days". Indeed, not even within an order of magnitude of it.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:24 pm

expandables wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: On the other hand, only 2 USB2.0 ports is a bit disappointing. What do they think this is, 2012?
Whats wrong with that? I think two USB ports are enough. Give credit to these guys they made an awesome board. I believe they will hit 1 million in less than 30 days!
:twisted:
End of KS campaign...a bit under 38K backers, so estimate that they've "sold" less than 45K board in 45 days. So your "1 million" would take about 3 years, at that rate. Rather a far cry from 30 days.

I still maintain that the only spec item that differentiates this board from other boards is the 64-bit processor. Every other feature exists on some other SBC, and it's missing features that other SBCs have. That said, the price isn't bad.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:03 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: I still maintain that the only spec item that differentiates this board from other boards is the 64-bit processor. Every other feature exists on some other SBC, and it's missing features that other SBCs have. That said, the price isn't bad.
If i'm not mistaken the price is not just "not bad" but extremely good.

Are there other boards out there with 2GB of ram for less than twice the price of the 2GB Pine64+?

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:52 pm

plugwash wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: I still maintain that the only spec item that differentiates this board from other boards is the 64-bit processor. Every other feature exists on some other SBC, and it's missing features that other SBCs have. That said, the price isn't bad.
If i'm not mistaken the price is not just "not bad" but extremely good.

Are there other boards out there with 2GB of ram for less than twice the price of the 2GB Pine64+?
http://roseapplepi.org/index.php/spec/
Third item on the list: 2GB. It also has a third USB port and that one is USB 3.0, so suitable for reasonably fast mass storage. I checked one of their vendors and currency conversion puts it right about $58.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:32 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
plugwash wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: I still maintain that the only spec item that differentiates this board from other boards is the 64-bit processor. Every other feature exists on some other SBC, and it's missing features that other SBCs have. That said, the price isn't bad.
If i'm not mistaken the price is not just "not bad" but extremely good.

Are there other boards out there with 2GB of ram for less than twice the price of the 2GB Pine64+?
http://roseapplepi.org/index.php/spec/
Third item on the list: 2GB. It also has a third USB port and that one is USB 3.0, so suitable for reasonably fast mass storage. I checked one of their vendors and currency conversion puts it right about $58.
I'd prefer the pi over this anytime, the cpu heats too much and i have mannaged to somehow fry the gpu
[random green horizontal lines keep appearing whenever gpu is used]...
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:05 pm

Hi
My Pine A64 board arrive today... !!
Image

Image

Two weeks ago, I'd done case ..
Well I have to change any connector but basically It is functional.

If you want one (Just the enclosure of course :!: ) I'm offering in
various websites, ebay, Etsy and soon will be in stores AMAZON :mrgreen:

Sale on Ponoko http://goo.gl/dNheKF
Last edited by killor on Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Discount Codes :MAYTHE4TH :!:

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:47 pm

Now people start offering addons for other boards on the RPi forum!
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:17 am

A recent missive from the PINE64 folks contained a couple of interesting tidbits....
1. The 512MB board costs PINE64 $14. So the (proportional) profit margin on those boards is probably *less* that that of the Pi Zero.
2. The post-KS price of the 512MB PINE64 board will be $25.

So...while the "$15 64bit ARM board" wasn't a loss leader, it wasn't far from it (and It might be...if you account for how much KS gets). I think it's worth noting that the RPF has *never* raised the official price of a board that has been released, or that of the most relevant follow on board (e.g. B to B+ to Pi2B).

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:31 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: I think it's worth noting that the RPF has *never* raised the official price of a board that has been released, or that of the most relevant follow on board (e.g. B to B+ to Pi2B).
The Pi People planned out the price they were going for and hit that price out of the gate. When they did this, they were way under market for a similar level of functionality.

These other companies are now operating in a new reality, with prices set off what has now become the SBC world's IBM: "No one ever got fired for buying a mess of Raspberry Pi computers." Into that market, you've often got to undercut the Pi People to even get a hearing.

To do that and still make a profit is hard so we see introductory prices. The danger of an intro price is that your product will crater later and there will be no support. On these products, support mostly means, post warranty, that there is an up to date OS to run.

Of course this risk is mitigated by the fact that SBCs in the Post Pi Era are so cheap, who cares!? Well, you won't care that much unless you've integrated your SBC into something where it is isn't easy to switch to another board and suddenly you've got a problem with your OS or need a new board, that sort of thing.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:40 pm

Hi !
Well, I've been testing a few days this computer Pine A64+ ( 1GB) 19$

The truth is that not correct I get some problems
... No configuration connects the wifi and BT does not work in some phones..
(WIFI & BT module + 10$)

Now I have installed Android 5.0 Lollipop in a MINI SD card 4GB...

Image

Image

Incidentally, the acrylic enclosure I've made .. ;)
soon will put on sale at AMAZON http://amzn.to/1MMwEex, ETC.

This waiting, some PH2 connectors them with the RTC battery holder,
for inclusion in orders for the enclosure.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:11 am

With the pi3 released, was the pine 64 too little too soon?
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:19 am

ric96 wrote:With the pi3 released, was the pine 64 too little too soon?
not to those that want 2G RAM :roll:
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