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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:19 am

Tzarls wrote:I guess (hope?) the RPi will be, again, causing lots of headaches to the poor guys in charge of the distributor´s web sites this christmas.... :lol:

On a side note....I read somewhere that the original plan was to produce a higher priced RPi but some guy at Google persuaded Eben the other way around.... now that we have the low end of the price range covered, would it be crazy to aim for the, say, $50 mark?
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:22 am

gregeric wrote:I can't imagine that whatever fab plant is churning out 2835's is producing silicon tuned for one model or the other, so even if they have tweaked things for the Zero (doping or whatever) then in time newly produced parts will work their way into Z/A+/B+
Note that the 256 MB DRAM device on the Model A+ has been in declining supply, with no replacement available. I would also direct everyone's attention to the DRAM POP mounted on the SoC on the Zero - it's an Elpida (now Micron) part (not listed anywhere I could find, BTW) that has a slightly smaller footprint than that of the BCM-2835/6, and so, therefore, is the the footprint of the Zero's SoC. It's pretty clear that at least the package of the Zero's SoC has been scaled down slightly to fit the Elpida/Micron device, and one tantalizing possibility is that the ball grid array (BGA) on the Zero's SoC has been configured for POP DRAM parts even larger than 512 MB, which is a hard upper limit in the BCM-2835/6.

The Zero's SoC is qualified for 1 GHz, which is not done via overclocking at this kind of price point - it means that all of the devices delivered have reliably been tested to at least that clock speed. That's not merely a matter of tweaking the semiconductor fabrication process, which is feasible, but very difficult, which means expensive. There is another way to achieve such improvements readily as well as reduce cost at the same time, if production volume is sufficient.

I wouldn't be surprised if something else has been modified inside the SoC while they were in there, as there has been plenty of time to do so over the past few years, all while the volume of the Pii has been ramping up exponentially, slowly at first, but accelerating. That means the Pii are achieving volume scale unprecedented for a development board with their capabilities, and with volume scale comes the ability to create more advanced semiconductor devices, rather than depend on availability of hand-me-down devices like the BCM-2835 from the Roku 2 line.

I have no evidence as to whether what I'm thinking is true, so I won't speculate as to what else may have been modified lest it should lead to mass hysteria that will be blamed on me. Think about what the next logical step needs to be in order to make a giant leap for Pi-kind in order to substantially increase the SoC feature set beyond that in the BCM-2836. The Zero's SoC may be the first incremental step along that long-awaited transition path to The New Frontier that may take years to unfold, but it may have started with the Zero. We may find that there was a lot more to celebrate about the technology underlying the Zero than we ever imagined.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:12 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:The B+ afaiaa were better overclockers than the preceeding B :shock:
I'm wondering if that is because of the better power regulation? One of the main issues with overclocking on the B was getting a really good, stable PSU.

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:55 am

rpdom wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:The B+ afaiaa were better overclockers than the preceeding B :shock:
I'm wondering if that is because of the better power regulation? One of the main issues with overclocking on the B was getting a really good, stable PSU.
That seems more likely the reason, surprisingly still life in the BCM2835, ROKU are the only other known current user https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roku

Maybe the A+ / B+ / CM will not need to be replaced for the foreseeable future, just tweaked :?:
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:27 am

I think Roku have moved on to another chip using the VC4 now, so I suspect Pi's are one of the few remaining 2835 users.

I think the extra stable speed of the Zero is down to a slightly higher chip voltage. rather than any change in manufacture.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:27 am

jamesh:
I agree with your 'guess' about the performance increase of the Zero: I can't imagine that there would be a modified or specially selected SoC in a $5 board. So the improvement is probably due to changes in the overclocking-related entries in config.txt.
I've seen a comment somewhere on the forums from Gordon Hollingworth that implied that 'there was a lot in hand'.
Which leads me to ask, can we get the same result with a model B or B+, without wading through lots of (sometimes esoteric and often risky) overclocking discussions.
Is this a reasonable train of thought?
Can somebody post the relevant entries from config.txt. for the Zero, so we can see what they are?

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:34 am

canyon wrote:jamesh:
I agree with your 'guess' about the performance increase of the Zero: I can't imagine that there would be a modified or specially selected SoC in a $5 board. So the improvement is probably due to changes in the overclocking-related entries in config.txt.
I've seen a comment somewhere on the forums from Gordon Hollingworth that implied that 'there was a lot in hand'.
Which leads me to ask, can we get the same result with a model B or B+, without wading through lots of (sometimes esoteric and often risky) overclocking discussions.
Is this a reasonable train of thought?
Can somebody post the relevant entries from config.txt. for the Zero, so we can see what they are?
I've always run my RPi B and B+ with 1GHz overclocking and they were rock stable. The RPi2 is much more sensitive to overclocking (sepecially the RAM, I suppose), but it doesn't really need it.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:51 am

jamesh wrote:I think Roku have moved on to another chip using the VC4 now, so I suspect Pi's are one of the few remaining 2835 users.

I think the extra stable speed of the Zero is down to a slightly higher chip voltage. rather than any change in manufacture.
The Roku Streaming Stick uses the BCM2835, but the STB's use a different Broadcom SoC ;)
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:19 pm

jamesh wrote:I think the extra stable speed of the Zero is down to a slightly higher chip voltage. rather than any change in manufacture.
That doesn't make sense - the speed bump is 40%, which if it were a voltage increase would mean a substantial increase in heat and a decrease in longevity. Plus, the current consumption full-bore is reportedly 160 mA, with as low as 60 mA in a quiescent state. It doesn't seem like that much of a current drop would occur, if any, with the voltage increase needed to get to a 40% speed increase. I won't speculate as to the real reason, but I have my suspicions, outlined above, based on the change in SoC footprint to accommodate the new DRAM part. If they're going to change the SoC that much, there are lots of other things that could have been done while it was up on the rack getting its entire undercarriage upgraded ... ;)
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:46 pm

Wasn't overclocking the early Pis hit and miss ?

Could they have pre-selected the chips that will take it ?

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:22 pm

gordon77 wrote:Wasn't overclocking the early Pis hit and miss ?

Could they have pre-selected the chips that will take it ?
This was discussed , but can not find thread, but and it seems the A+/B+ with the revised Power circuitry made 900mhz AOK

EDITED:
I do not feel that the BCM2835 has had a die size changed, considering the BCM2835 is used in the A+ / B+ / Roku Stick.......

The SoC has likely recouped its development cost of 10+ years ago so a reasonably small cost to RPF per 5,000 units, considering what they had to spend developing the Quad Core BCM2836, re-engineering the current BCM2835 would appear to not be a cost effective option.

Regards the 1Ghz speed, that is actually the maximum the ARM11 was designed for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM11
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:39 pm

gordon77 wrote:Wasn't overclocking the early Pis hit and miss ?

Could they have pre-selected the chips that will take it ?
I think that would make the whole process too time consuming, and still wouldn´t produce the desired effects,.. My guess is that there has definitely been some redesigning of the main components, or the components around the main ones. Hopefully that can be ported to the previous systems for a new generation/revision. But hey....we´ll know next friday, right? :D

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:19 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
I do not feel that the BCM2835 has had a die size changed, after around 10 years would it be worth it :?: :?:
IDK [speculation] What was the manufacturing capability for the BCM2835? And the demand for the chip from Pi and other customers? Was a die shrink necessary to ensure volume of production for the next few years, given the commitments to the long term future of the BCM2835 versions of the Pi? However, different packaging may make its use in the A+ and B+ unattractive because of required board rework.

What else has been sneaked in even if not used in the Zero? A Pi Zero B (possibly with non-USB Ethernet, onboard WiFi or RTC) could be possible at, say, a $10 price point, so maybe the A+ and B+ could be dropped -- certainly I don't think the A+ has any advantage now over the Zero. Or a Zero expander/motherboard (linked on a stackable GPIO header?) to give the Zero additional I/O and onboard peripherals. Unrelated known possibilities are a 2A and a CM2 using the BCM2836. That would give a respectable but manageable family of boards, and probably enough to see the RPF through to the need for a new/different SoC for Pi3. [/speculation]

Whatever the next Pi products are, and whenever they arrive, I predict there will still be similar amazement and "why does it (not) have ... " discussions.

Given RPF's ability to surprise us with the specs and prices of new products, and recently the ability to reach launch without leaks, I'm probably way off :lol: :?
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:44 pm

Some thoughts about rPi 0 after it release. I don't want to say it is bad product but i can't find is market placement ...

IMHO usb type A connector, normal size HDMI, wifi built-in and Chip will get beaten. I have no idea why Foundation decided to strip down so important things. You can't use it as IoT, you have to buy special cables and put on your desk a cable spider instead of clean working environment.

It could cost a dollar or two more but it will unleash power of rPi community for masses. Now it is too complex to start with rPi zero. Too many accessories needed, too many things to do (or buy) before you can get into work.

At first i thought it could replace in my projects arduino+esp8266. On second i realized that it is not, not even though it is too powerful or expensive (price is great!), but it will work as autonomous system with TCP/IP stack .... but without peripherals to use it :-( At least you have to add serial port transciver for bluetooth connection.

IMHO it is sad that to get into work (at least to start up your own program and leave it autonomous) you have to add: keyb+mice (1 usb - that is ok), wifi/lan card (1 ubs - that is not ok), usb hub (that is ok), nonstandard HDMI cable (that is nonsense). IMHO it should be simplier. What is great I heard that usb back power works.

Single USB is ok, but with wifi built-in so you could work remotely. Raspian image could (like in OpenWRT Gargoyle) enable wifi in AP mode so you can easily connect to it.

I think that it is great product for the price, but i think that i will not make me use rPi 0 at my school. It would take to much effort to prepare class everyday use of rPi 0 on 1 or 2 lessons, somewhere between classes where i have to use regular PC.

In undeveloped societies it is great product that can bring computing into homes and schools, but in the UK, USA? Isn't there Micro:Bit? I don't think that somewhere in poor countries people will decide to use rPi 0 instead of B model.

PS. I don't want to start a flame war or something, this are my thoughts and that is my personal opinion. I still think that rPi for everyone almost for free is great achievement. But should cables and SD card multiply price by 4? I also hate guys selling rPi 0 in Poland for $50!
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:01 pm

Szymon_Zy wrote: ...
nonstandard HDMI cable (that is nonsense)
...
I have to disagree - e.g. the Nikon Coolpix L120 digital camera required such a cable over three years ago, so definitely a "standard" but, maybe, less common.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:05 pm

davidcoton wrote: What else has been sneaked in even if not used in the Zero? A Pi Zero B (possibly with non-USB Ethernet, onboard WiFi or RTC) could be possible at, say, a $10 price point, so maybe the A+ and B+ could be dropped
-- certainly I don't think the A+ has any advantage now over the Zero.
see my thread here on A+ vs Zero:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=127078

but basically, A+ has the camera and display interfaces that the Zero doesn't have.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:14 pm

Szymon_Zy wrote: In undeveloped societies it is great product that can bring computing into homes and schools, but in the UK, USA?
Exactly. Aren´t you glad that the foundation cares for those who can´t afford a computer even if it only costs $35?

This of it this way:

For implementing a computing lab, maybe the B+ or the Pi2 might be more adequate - with it you can teach how to use the internet, the cloud and other stuff like that, use apps from mathematica to office oriented stuff, and programming. But when thinking about domotics and applied electronics, doesn´t it make more sense to use something that, if damaged, can be easily (and cheaply) replaced? After all, when you blow a Zero, you´ll probably have to replace only the board - the cables might be able to be reused. At $5 it is easier to afford spare units.

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:41 pm

Ok. I just find out that i missed one thing. Serial console. That is a thing! So to work with Pi Zero you just have to use USB FTDI converter + three jumper wires. That blows some of my pleas. I was not thinking in that direction. Do you thing it could be good way to start it up by regular user?
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Szymon_Zy wrote:Ok. I just find out that i missed one thing. Serial console. That is a thing! So to work with Pi Zero you just have to use USB FTDI converter + three jumper wires. That blows some of my pleas. I was not thinking in that direction. Do you thing it could be good way to start it up by regular user?
Yes, USB-TTL cables will also power the pi - and raspbian has a serial console on by default.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:05 pm

mikerr wrote:
Szymon_Zy wrote:Ok. I just find out that i missed one thing. Serial console. That is a thing! So to work with Pi Zero you just have to use USB FTDI converter + three jumper wires. That blows some of my pleas. I was not thinking in that direction. Do you thing it could be good way to start it up by regular user?
Yes, USB-TTL cables will also power the pi - and raspbian has a serial console on by default.
My first Unix box only had a serial console to start with - until I added a $2500 10Mbit Ethernet card.

Luckily all the kit was second-hand and didn't cost me a penny, just the sweat and blood to get the thing home. I grabbed every expansion card I could get my hands on and run it in an unsupported configuration with 240MB of RAM. I checked out the original cost of the parts I used and it came to about the same as I paid for my house :)

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:31 pm

Tzarls wrote:
Szymon_Zy wrote: After all, when you blow a Zero, you´ll probably have to replace only the board - the cables might be able to be reused. At $5 it is easier to afford spare units.
Isn't there a polyfuse on board? My zero was sent on friday so i think will check build quality of it about wednesday.
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:37 pm

Szymon_Zy wrote:
Tzarls wrote:
Szymon_Zy wrote: After all, when you blow a Zero, you´ll probably have to replace only the board - the cables might be able to be reused. At $5 it is easier to afford spare units.
Isn't there a polyfuse on board? My zero was sent on friday so i think will check build quality of it about wednesday.
People have looked. There doesn't appear to be one.

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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:38 pm

Jim Manley wrote:
jamesh wrote:I think the extra stable speed of the Zero is down to a slightly higher chip voltage. rather than any change in manufacture.
That doesn't make sense - the speed bump is 40%, which if it were a voltage increase would mean a substantial increase in heat and a decrease in longevity. Plus, the current consumption full-bore is reportedly 160 mA, with as low as 60 mA in a quiescent state. It doesn't seem like that much of a current drop would occur, if any, with the voltage increase needed to get to a 40% speed increase. I won't speculate as to the real reason, but I have my suspicions, outlined above, based on the change in SoC footprint to accommodate the new DRAM part. If they're going to change the SoC that much, there are lots of other things that could have been done while it was up on the rack getting its entire undercarriage upgraded ... ;)

As I wrote on my blog, Eben told me last week that not only is there a CPU overclock, but also L2 cache is running faster too (and something about a core running faster, that sadly I forgot the exact details if any that he gave me on that). I very much doubt that there was any monkeying with the silicon on such a now old chip.

Also, I measured the power consumption. The max current draw I managed was 140 mA at 5.09V.
http://raspi.tv/2015/raspberry-pi-zero- ... asurements

This was pretty much the same as the model A+
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:45 pm

mikerr wrote:
Szymon_Zy wrote:Ok. I just find out that i missed one thing. Serial console. That is a thing! So to work with Pi Zero you just have to use USB FTDI converter + three jumper wires. That blows some of my pleas. I was not thinking in that direction. Do you thing it could be good way to start it up by regular user?
Yes, USB-TTL cables will also power the pi - and raspbian has a serial console on by default.
Is that still true post-Jessie? I was under the impression it was not on by default any more? (We'll need to check that though)
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Re: Is a new Raspberry Pi model coming?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:10 pm

mikerr wrote:
davidcoton wrote: What else has been sneaked in even if not used in the Zero? A Pi Zero B (possibly with non-USB Ethernet, onboard WiFi or RTC) could be possible at, say, a $10 price point, so maybe the A+ and B+ could be dropped
-- certainly I don't think the A+ has any advantage now over the Zero.
see my thread here on A+ vs Zero:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=127078

but basically, A+ has the camera and display interfaces that the Zero doesn't have.
Thanks for the correction. Very significant if you want RPI camera or RPi display, so A+/B+ still have a place -- though in assessing the product range, those users could be pushed to the not-yet existing 2A and the more expensive 2B.
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