tinctu
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STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:15 pm

What about:
Port Atari ST emulator+Linux (CoreOS) and boot into Atari ST / STE {TOS+GEM} operating system via that emulator???
On ATARI ST there are thousand and thousand games, apps etc etc...

2 possible ways to do:
HATARI+LINUX
1.) http://hatari.tuxfamily.org/

ARANYM/AFROS Live CD
2.) http://aranym.org/livecd.html

So we will have something as AROS but for ATARI ST???

ATARI ST wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_ST

Games:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuQlD6Xxu-o


paulselby1
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:32 am

I'd be interested in this project - Let me know if you need any help testing etc

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RichKavanagh
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:23 pm

Has any work been done on this one?

Sounds great :)


tinctu
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:52 am

OK I will write to all my ATARI friends this week... And we start building this OS.
ATARI needs to be on RPi!

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Shawty
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:38 pm

ha ha ha :-)

I have to have a laugh at this one.

I fondly remember back in my Youth the "Running Battles" I used to have between school friends as to which home computer was best.

I had my Acorn Archimedes A5000, others had Atari ST and some had Amigas.

and now with great amusement, there's a discussion going on about getting an ST up and running on what is essentially Acorn Archimedes Hardware but with a bit more power :-)

The back bedroom home brew heros of the 80's would be casting people to the gates of hell by now... how far we've come since those days.

:P
still crazy (Even since the days of my BBC Model B) BEST and only way to be ;-)

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trondis23
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:37 am

Would it be difficult to port xSteem? I used Steem for PC, and it worked perfectly with MIDI. It would be great to run Atari ST MIDI programs on the Raspberry Pi. I have tons of them.

tinctu
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:21 pm

RISCOS PI way:

1.)
download RiscOS

2.)
use win32disk image to write it on SD
https://launchpad.net/win32-image-write ... binary.zip

3.)
download HATARI emulator
http://www.norisc-nofun.co.uk/downloads/hatari162-1.zip

4.)
download EMUTOS...
http://emutos.sourceforge.net/en/
Last edited by tinctu on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

tinctu
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:24 pm

RiscOS:
http://downloads.raspberrypi.org/images ... 01-RC6.zip

Now I will try to make standalone Linux distro...

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u8nc
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:35 am

well well well
3 holes in the ground

i was just replying to a post about forth on the Pi
someone has _just_ done one at http://hansoft.come.to
because Brothers Tramiel did a lot of Forth in getting the
8bit predecessors to the ST going ( including work from
employees Stevens Jobs and Wozniac )

If they got that done, a Virtual FujiBox is certainly possible.
But whoever does do it, like NoSTalgia on the mac, one can't
give away TOS images, they are still under copyright ( Hasbro? i think?)
pity i can't plug in my WillVisser Supermon hardware Debugger/DIsassembler
( remember the DMA slot? )

I accidentally ended up here, and am overwhelmed.
I have disks and CD's jam packed with stuff My wife and I
want to revisit ( she's a coder too ),

Who'da thunk it?

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Shawty
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:53 am

Yes, indeed you can't give TOS images away, but I do believe that there is an open source version called "Open TOS" floating around.

I do remember seeing it once over when looking for Atari emulators.
still crazy (Even since the days of my BBC Model B) BEST and only way to be ;-)

IM: @shawty_ds on twitter
if you remember the Acorn and BBC days then I was "!Shawty! of DSPD" (Author of the BBC B Sound Tracker suite, and the Dreamscape demo)

CodenameV
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:41 am

Shawty wrote:Yes, indeed you can't give TOS images away, but I do believe that there is an open source version called "Open TOS" floating around.

I do remember seeing it once over when looking for Atari emulators.

How about this for an option :)

http://sourceforge.net/projects/emutos/

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Shawty
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:06 pm

Ha ha... that's EXACTLY the one I was on about above....

Well done.

:lol:
still crazy (Even since the days of my BBC Model B) BEST and only way to be ;-)

IM: @shawty_ds on twitter
if you remember the Acorn and BBC days then I was "!Shawty! of DSPD" (Author of the BBC B Sound Tracker suite, and the Dreamscape demo)

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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:34 pm

Since this thread is about OS's native to the RPi. Might I suggest porting EmuTOS+MiNT+XaAES+TeraDesk to run ARM native on the RPi, and then adding a 68020 emulator running on the VdeoCore IV processor (could be very fast if you take advantage of the multiple cores), and have a loader for 68K native apps that defers TRAPs and other OS calls to the ARM Native OS? I think that you would have an unbelivably fast Atari if this were done, maybe even faster than the ACP FireBee (Google "Aari coldfire Project).
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jamesh
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:54 pm

Remember the VC4 is clocked at 250Mhz, whilst the Arm is up to 1GHz. So you will get better performance out of the Arm since you are unlikely to be able to use the vector cores in any useful way to emulate 68020 instructions. The vectors cores multiply up the performance on the GPU (16 way SIMD vector core * 250Mhz = 4Ghz, and there are two cores)
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DavidS
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:26 pm

jamesh wrote:Remember the VC4 is clocked at 250Mhz, whilst the Arm is up to 1GHz. So you will get better performance out of the Arm since you are unlikely to be able to use the vector cores in any useful way to emulate 68020 instructions. The vectors cores multiply up the performance on the GPU (16 way SIMD vector core * 250Mhz = 4Ghz, and there are two cores)
Ok, though what about using the scalar core to translate sections of the instruction stream to arm native with out taking time on the ARM side? Kind of like a jit Emulator, translate the code as far as posible by fallowing branches, jumps, etc, and keep the entire executable image in a second area of ram that is accessed for data access operations, and translated as needed.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, though I think it gets the idea acrossed.
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:37 pm

DavidS wrote:
jamesh wrote:Remember the VC4 is clocked at 250Mhz, whilst the Arm is up to 1GHz. So you will get better performance out of the Arm since you are unlikely to be able to use the vector cores in any useful way to emulate 68020 instructions. The vectors cores multiply up the performance on the GPU (16 way SIMD vector core * 250Mhz = 4Ghz, and there are two cores)
Ok, though what about using the scalar core to translate sections of the instruction stream to arm native with out taking time on the ARM side? Kind of like a jit Emulator, translate the code as far as posible by fallowing branches, jumps, etc, and keep the entire executable image in a second area of ram that is accessed for data access operations, and translated as needed.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, though I think it gets the idea acrossed.
I get what you are suggesting, but the 250Mhz is still a bottle neck - it wouldn't be able to keep up with the Arm execution speed, the Arm would have to keep halting to allow the next section of translation to be completed - very stop start. It would be slightly faster than the Arm alone I think, but there are also over heads in moving the data from GPU and back which would slow things down too. SIMD doesn't help here of course.

Some sort of cross assembler (converting 68020 to Arm) would be a better bet I think - same amount of work as JIT translator (in fact they are very similar)
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
DavidS wrote:
jamesh wrote:Remember the VC4 is clocked at 250Mhz, whilst the Arm is up to 1GHz. So you will get better performance out of the Arm since you are unlikely to be able to use the vector cores in any useful way to emulate 68020 instructions. The vectors cores multiply up the performance on the GPU (16 way SIMD vector core * 250Mhz = 4Ghz, and there are two cores)
Ok, though what about using the scalar core to translate sections of the instruction stream to arm native with out taking time on the ARM side? Kind of like a jit Emulator, translate the code as far as posible by fallowing branches, jumps, etc, and keep the entire executable image in a second area of ram that is accessed for data access operations, and translated as needed.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, though I think it gets the idea acrossed.
I get what you are suggesting, but the 250Mhz is still a bottle neck - it wouldn't be able to keep up with the Arm execution speed, the Arm would have to keep halting to allow the next section of translation to be completed - very stop start. It would be slightly faster than the Arm alone I think, but there are also over heads in moving the data from GPU and back which would slow things down too. SIMD doesn't help here of course.

Some sort of cross assembler (converting 68020 to Arm) would be a better bet I think - same amount of work as JIT translator (in fact they are very similar)
I was thinking on the ARM side perform a task switch when it runs into a section that needsto be translated, as well as keeping the already traslaed portions in memory until the task/thread is terminitaded in some way (weather i requests to quit, or it is killed). Of cource this would not allow for self modifying code. Remember that MiNT is a Preemptive Multitasking OS.

And with TOS/MiNT/XaAES/TeraDESK and some applications running in native ARM code I still think thiswould be faster than you may think.
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:14 pm

The reason or my extremem interest n this topic is that the Operatin System that I am writin from the ground up is largely modeled after TOS+MiNT+GEM. And it would be kind of nice to be able to run some older applications natively on my OS (so long as they do not try to dirrectly access Hardware [that would add a whole extra layer of complexity])
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hermanhermitage
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:04 am

jamesh wrote:
DavidS wrote:
jamesh wrote:Remember the VC4 is clocked at 250Mhz, whilst the Arm is up to 1GHz. So you will get better performance out of the Arm since you are unlikely to be able to use the vector cores in any useful way to emulate 68020 instructions. The vectors cores multiply up the performance on the GPU (16 way SIMD vector core * 250Mhz = 4Ghz, and there are two cores)
Ok, though what about using the scalar core to translate sections of the instruction stream to arm native with out taking time on the ARM side? Kind of like a jit Emulator, translate the code as far as posible by fallowing branches, jumps, etc, and keep the entire executable image in a second area of ram that is accessed for data access operations, and translated as needed.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, though I think it gets the idea acrossed.
I get what you are suggesting, but the 250Mhz is still a bottle neck - it wouldn't be able to keep up with the Arm execution speed, the Arm would have to keep halting to allow the next section of translation to be completed - very stop start. It would be slightly faster than the Arm alone I think, but there are also over heads in moving the data from GPU and back which would slow things down too. SIMD doesn't help here of course.

Some sort of cross assembler (converting 68020 to Arm) would be a better bet I think - same amount of work as JIT translator (in fact they are very similar)
Anyone interested in early 680x0 JIT/dynarec check out http://www.ardi.com/synpaper.php and https://github.com/ctm. Not sure what 68k emulators use code generation these days.

As james says the ARM is arguably better suited to 68k emulation than the VC4 due to clock speed. For total thruput you could simulate multiple cores by using both VC4 cores and ARM, but because the VC4 and ARM coupling is a little weak, you may encounter latency issues.

The VC4 is better suited to providing other services such as video format conversion (say planar to chunky), audio synthesis, blitting and so forth. However if you need high accuracy in emulation then you need tighter coupling (for example see http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/a ... -emulator/ (in truth its possible to speculatively optimistically decouple clock domains - but at the cost of complexity in backing out and re-synchronizing)).

As to exploiting the SIMD in the VC4, its possible (seen Erven Rohou's split complilation work for ideas on reducing run time overhead via static analysis) but JIT or dynarec vectorization is still in its early days - ie fertile area for exploration, and its not clear from here what kind of vectorizable workloads exist in the base of precompiled 680x0 software.

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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:58 am

Since no one else is willing to write a good TOS + GEM + MiNT clone I have began work on this. I just hope that some one gives it a try once it is available.

I have redirected the effort of my little OS to focus on making a usable OS that is API compatable with TOS 4.04 with XaAES, though using the DR-GEM Multitasking API as outlined for XM/GEM, and adding a wrapper for the MiNT functions. This will alow applications to be simply recompiled from source to run at full speed on the Raspberry Pi.

Once it is fully functional and reasonably debugged I intend to add a 68030 + 68882 emulator allowing many applications that are compiled for the 68k Atari to run natively so long as they do not directly access Atari specific HW, The emulated CPU will pas any TRAP, or A-Line calls to the appropriate SWI for the ARM Native OS. This is a reserection of my first GEM/TOS like OS that was named Zerro OS, and I am looking for a better name for this new incarnation.

This will be a stepping stone in making sure that I completely understand the RPi HW and thus giving the opportunity to do much much more with this beautiful little computer.
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tinctu
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:46 pm

Hi David.
I will help you to put this into ATARI ST webpages (news) all over the world (I am ATARI FAN).
And when you need I have webspace on my server for OS webpage.

What about GEMSTone OS??? :) There is GEM and there is ST inside this word play.

And logo can be something like this:
Image

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DavidS
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Re: STAROS - Atari ST (GEM+TOS)

Thu May 16, 2013 3:09 am

Sounds good. I am still devotig alot of time to the RISC OS Open USB Stack rewrite though there is forward progress on the TOS/GEM clone OS. As to the name GEM.STone does sound good.

Sorry for delayed resonce I was stuck offline for a while.
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