kayel
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:05 am

MonitorMan wrote: I don’t know how to connect an interrupt to a GPIO pin nor about pull-ups/downs and UARTS and I would respectfully suggest they would belong in a hardware book anyway. But maybe, just maybe - learning to turn an LED on and understand how would stimulate people to look further? Turn to you experts and these forums for help? Mission accomplished!
Goodday, Bruce,

I think you just included me in the experts. From now on I will recommend your book.

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GavinW
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:41 pm

I do not think "RISC OS System Programming Revealed" is intended for complete beginners. More appropriate is the RISC OS 3 User Guide. This was published in 1991. Volunteers are busy putting together an updated online version appropriate for the Raspberry Pi. As you can imagine, there is a good deal of material that is now out of date.

What should a complete beginner start with? IMHO

1. Learn how to navigate filing systems using the desktop. For example, click the left mouse button (Select) on a directory icon to open the directory, and click the right mouse button (Adjust) on a directory icon to open the directory and simultaneously close its parent window. A similar regime holds for clicking a filer window's close icon (X). So using Adjust the total number of filer windows open remains invariant. Use the middle button (Menu) to open context-sensitive menus. Use Adjust on a menu item if you want the menu to stay open, Select otherwise. If you drag a window (by the title bar) using Adjust you can drag it beneath other windows - it keeps its level in the window stack.

2. Play with a text editor. Learn how to create a textfile and save it, with the leafname and filetype of your choosing, by dragging the icon from the Save dialogue box and dropping it where you want it to be. Note that you can enter text into texteditor windows even when they are not on top of the window stack. Input-focus does not equal top-of-the-window-stack. That means less window shuffling than in Windows. Shift-clicking files will open them in a texteditor window. Shift-clicking applications will open them as directories.

3. Play with Draw (vector graphics) and Paint (bit-mapped sprites). I recommend the former because it is fun and the latter because you may need to create your own or modify somebody else's sprite if you create your own applications.

4. Get used to the fact that if things go wrong, switching off and switching back on takes only a second or two and usually does a lot less harm than it would on other systems.
otium negare negotium vanum

kayel
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:32 pm

@ Bruce Smith,

Because one person on this forum (me) didn't like your book, you hate everyone?
If you thought your book could stand up on its own, why did you bring your big brother with you?
Monitorman. Did you find him in a DC comic?
So Monitorman thinks it's obvious that your book is for beginners. Since when did beginners start with vectors and interrupts?
When you say your book is only for beginners, you don't do yourself justice. Your book has the answer to everyone's questions whether they be beginners, in-betweens, or the nasty experts on this forum: Consult the PRMs.
You could have saved yourself a lot of time and trouble by photocopying the PRM index.
You may or may not have noticed that I haven't given my opinion on your book on Amazon, in France or anywhere else. Fair play. I gave my opinion here because someone asked for it.
If you come back spitting venom on this forum I'll reply to you on Amazon.

AMcS
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:58 pm

DexOS wrote: Hi AMcS,
Hi DexOS !
DexOS wrote:Its hard to put your finger on it, but i get the impression that RISC OS people are stuck in there ways and things much be done in a set way, or not at all.
This has been good in the past and has kept RISC OS alive.
That's probably why it worked and why they did it. Remember RISC OS originally was a commercial product, it was also one burned into ROM so it had to "reliable" as it took effort (and cost money) to fix/change things.

While it might be argued that as RISC OS has become a more open model that does not remove the need for co-ordination - in fact it probably requires it even more. RISC OS is over 25 years old yet there is only two forks (how many forks of Linux are there ?). Linux can afford it in that it has many enthusiastic and very skilled developers available to it - RISC OS is less fortunate (we have too few developers - so a burst of "forking" would only spread the number of active developers too thin (IMHO)).

DexOS wrote:But now they have a opportunity to take RISC OS to the next stage, but the thing that has kept RISC OS alive is now holding it back.
Possibly, but if it had died out with the last Iyonix back in the early noughties we'd have nothing now. The fact we're having this debate is a good thing - because it means people can see that RISC OS has a future - but we just haven't worked out the roadmap fully yet.

DexOS wrote:There's is a need out there for a fast OS that lets coders and experimenters make projects without getting in the way.
It must be small enough to understand, but still have the needed functionality.
Its must not be a linux clone, by slowly moving over to C, there's nothing wrong with linux, i use it everyday, but RISC OS needs to be different.
I fully agree. I would tolerate a little slippage towards "C" because currently there are too few developers and those that ARE doing the development are (I think) entitled to have a say on how they do it. My big issue, however, is that if substantially more than 50% of RISC OS were to become C we'd lose out on the speed and compactness of ARM code. If the % of C got high enough you'd wind up with something slow, that lacks RISC OS'es traditional nippiness and doesn't provide any of the advantages of Linux (you'd in fact wind up - I feel - with a "worst of all worlds" scenario).
DexOS wrote:I think RISC OS need to stay asm and basic, and new programmer's need to be encouraged more.
I'd agree, but would tentatively suggest that some applications (not the OS itself - but tools used on the desktop) could be created using "C" without necessarily compromising things too much. Many apps already are - but key OS modules (filing systems, font system, kernel etc.,) should as much as possible stay ARM coded.

But as I don't have the last say on this (I ain't coding the stuff) I'd make that and my other suggestions as tentatively as possible as the ROOL lads have done a remarkable amount of work - and it shows in that RISC OS has become a viable, fast and interesting OS on the RaspberryPi and other platforms.
DexOS wrote:I for example have spent a long time coding a usb stack in full assembly for my hobby OS for the pi, now why am i doing that when RISC OS is my ideal OS ?.
Some progress has been made on USB on RISC OS (even support for USB Audio devices...) so perhaps things are better there than they were (and yes the USB situation on RO was not the best and is improving slowly). Perhaps what you've learned could be of use in further advancing USB on RISC OS ?
DexOS wrote:Its the little things that need to be looked at, for example where on any of the main forum's is there's a programmers sub forum ?.
A good point.
DexOS wrote:Please note, this is just a outsider looking in point of view and the people that have worked on RISC OS have done a great job.
Again I am in full agreement with you they have indeed done a great job

Thanks for your considered feedback !

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DexOS
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:08 am

First i do not have this book, i have the first book "Raspberry Pi Assembly Language "
I think "Bruce Smith" is a very honest man which is a breath of fresh air nowadays.
Most authors want you to believe they know everything about there subject, when in most cases this is not true.

There is a need for new books, but they must be written in a way to get new programmers interested, kids need quick fixes these days.
Arduino and how they do things is a good example, they let people do big things with very little code.
Its all about flash (not adobe type) and bright colours, quick fixes.

If you do not believe that bright colour make a difference, than take a look at how much a keyboard is worth when you paint it orange :roll:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ale ... e-can-make
Batteries not included, Some assembly required.

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DexOS
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:35 am

AMcS wrote:
DexOS wrote: Hi AMcS,
Hi DexOS !
DexOS wrote:Its hard to put your finger on it, but i get the impression that RISC OS people are stuck in there ways and things much be done in a set way, or not at all.
This has been good in the past and has kept RISC OS alive.
That's probably why it worked and why they did it. Remember RISC OS originally was a commercial product, it was also one burned into ROM so it had to "reliable" as it took effort (and cost money) to fix/change things.

While it might be argued that as RISC OS has become a more open model that does not remove the need for co-ordination - in fact it probably requires it even more. RISC OS is over 25 years old yet there is only two forks (how many forks of Linux are there ?). Linux can afford it in that it has many enthusiastic and very skilled developers available to it - RISC OS is less fortunate (we have too few developers - so a burst of "forking" would only spread the number of active developers too thin (IMHO)).

DexOS wrote:But now they have a opportunity to take RISC OS to the next stage, but the thing that has kept RISC OS alive is now holding it back.
Possibly, but if it had died out with the last Iyonix back in the early noughties we'd have nothing now. The fact we're having this debate is a good thing - because it means people can see that RISC OS has a future - but we just haven't worked out the roadmap fully yet.

DexOS wrote:There's is a need out there for a fast OS that lets coders and experimenters make projects without getting in the way.
It must be small enough to understand, but still have the needed functionality.
Its must not be a linux clone, by slowly moving over to C, there's nothing wrong with linux, i use it everyday, but RISC OS needs to be different.
I fully agree. I would tolerate a little slippage towards "C" because currently there are too few developers and those that ARE doing the development are (I think) entitled to have a say on how they do it. My big issue, however, is that if substantially more than 50% of RISC OS were to become C we'd lose out on the speed and compactness of ARM code. If the % of C got high enough you'd wind up with something slow, that lacks RISC OS'es traditional nippiness and doesn't provide any of the advantages of Linux (you'd in fact wind up - I feel - with a "worst of all worlds" scenario).
DexOS wrote:I think RISC OS need to stay asm and basic, and new programmer's need to be encouraged more.
I'd agree, but would tentatively suggest that some applications (not the OS itself - but tools used on the desktop) could be created using "C" without necessarily compromising things too much. Many apps already are - but key OS modules (filing systems, font system, kernel etc.,) should as much as possible stay ARM coded.

But as I don't have the last say on this (I ain't coding the stuff) I'd make that and my other suggestions as tentatively as possible as the ROOL lads have done a remarkable amount of work - and it shows in that RISC OS has become a viable, fast and interesting OS on the RaspberryPi and other platforms.
DexOS wrote:I for example have spent a long time coding a usb stack in full assembly for my hobby OS for the pi, now why am i doing that when RISC OS is my ideal OS ?.
Some progress has been made on USB on RISC OS (even support for USB Audio devices...) so perhaps things are better there than they were (and yes the USB situation on RO was not the best and is improving slowly). Perhaps what you've learned could be of use in further advancing USB on RISC OS ?
DexOS wrote:Its the little things that need to be looked at, for example where on any of the main forum's is there's a programmers sub forum ?.
A good point.
DexOS wrote:Please note, this is just a outsider looking in point of view and the people that have worked on RISC OS have done a great job.
Again I am in full agreement with you they have indeed done a great job

Thanks for your considered feedback !
Hi AMcS thanks for the reply.
I also have no problems with RISC OS apps been coded in any language the coder choosers.

I would just make it clear as AMcS also has, that the people who have worked on RISC OS have done a fantastic job coding RISC OS, i know how much work must of got into it.
I would like to thank them for that.
Batteries not included, Some assembly required.

AMcS
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:00 am

[quote="DexOS]Hi AMcS thanks for the reply.[/quote]

No problem !

I think RO has a good future in front of it, there is a bit of a "buzz" around it that hasn't been there for sometime. It also represents coders with a new avenue to explore (people DO like challenges).

kevans67
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:52 am

Bruce Smith - thanks for taking the time to write these books. Hopefully writing about football has more than prepared you for the RISC OS crowd ;-)

I don't really understand the comments about GPIOs since apparently you decided to include a chapter on them in your book. I guess it's about how far you take it? I plan to play around with these via Basic/assembly and will post if I do anything interesting. First thing that I want to do is hookup a Parallax PING))) since I have one and wanted to do some demonstrations to some kids. I couldn't find an example of someone getting this to work on the Pi under RISC OS which was surprising. I thought that the Pi with RISC OS would make a nicer demo platform than a Parallax Propeller hooked up to a PC.

For those who didn't notice Bruce is revising and retitling his "Raspberry Pi Assembly Language Beginners: Hands On Guide" which will become "Assembly Language RISC OS Beginners". I noticed when I went to Amazon and they were out of stock and someone was trying to sell a copy of the first edition for over $300! Also the kindle version is not available for now, but Amazon will let people who purchased it continue to download it to their various ebook devices.

sassquad
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:53 pm

I've had a quick read through of this thread. The impression I get is that seasoned users of RISC OS are a little negative about the book. It's an admirable attempt to cover as wide a range of material as is possible within a few hundred pages, in the hope of bringing new users to the platform.

I purchased the book earlier this week. I quite like it. There are two things I find disappointing about the book. The first is that I would prefer books like this to be ring bound. However, I accept that it is probably more expensive to do this these days, so it's not specific to this publication.

What I do feel is a glaring omission is graphics handling on the platform. The use of things like ColourTrans, SYS SpriteOp are missing, as far as I can tell. You've got sections on sound, module programming, WIMP etc, but so far, have found no reference to plotting of sprites. A general overview on this would have been welcome, particularly as the subject of converting old games to the Pi, has proven to be a bit of a headache.

I guess my needs are rather more specific than this book can allow, but I feel that this book is a welcome alternative to newcomers, than trawling through websites and PDF files in various locales. This is too much hassle for people who just want to dive in and have a go.

I haven't approached the author about the above, but am happy to retract my comments if necessary. But I applaud his effort to bring this book to publication, and hope it encourages more people to at least have a go at using this OS.
Stephen Scott, SAS Squad Digital Media
www.sassquad.com

lobey
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:39 pm

assistanceneeded wrote:I am a NOOB, looking for a good book to teach me some programming skills for the Pi. I don't even know what languages are available, or where to find information. I want a book that has all the information to get me started in programming on the Pi.

Would you recommend this book for me?
If you can program in BBCBasic in RISC OS, look for a copy of the book 'Wimp Programming for All' by Lee Calcraft and Alan Wrigley. Both the book and its accompanying software were made available for free around 2007, and a quick Google search turned up the following URLs:

<https://archive.org/details/cdrom-riscos-riscuser>
<http://hallas.net/Nutshell/books/wpfa.htm>
<http://www.riscos.org/links/>

I found the book very helpful indeed. There are also other titles and magazine articles around that you can download. For program editing equip yourself with either 'Zap' or 'StrongEd', and for creating window templates, use 'WinEd' (all freeware). There is lots of other free software around.

Also, go to 'comp.sys.acorn.apps', 'comp.sys.acorn.misc', 'comp.sys.acorn.programmer' etc. and you will find much of interest, and also a pretty friendly bunch of contributors - several of whom have posted here.

When it's relevant, also consider cross-posting to 'comp.sys.raspberry-pi'.

lobey
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:17 pm

lobey wrote:
If you can program in BBCBasic in RISC OS ...
Further to my last posting, the following turned up on 'Usenet' yesterday evening:
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:15:57 +0100
From: Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavariasound@chiemgau-net.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.misc
Subject: Bruce Smith: RISC OS Programming Revealed

Found that:

<http://www.brucesmith.info/page32.html>

Is it a good one and worth the money?
I would guess from the contents that it is, and may well be more relevant to this topic.

HTH

svrsig
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Re: Book - Raspberry Pi RISC OS System Programming Revealed

Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:44 am

Try http://www.svrsig.org/HowTo.htm for a good idea how RISC OS looks. Also how to do some things.

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