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Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:40 pm
by DavidS
I do not see anything that deals with the SD card in the CVS log at a quick glance.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 pm
by tufty
DavidS wrote:We are showing a huge Pro:
THIS THREAD HAS COVERED A LOT OF GROUND ABOUT RISC OS, AND BBC BASIC. Would this happen with as much detail on any other "Modern" OS?
<steps back and looks at the majority of content on the forum>

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:07 pm
by LemmeFatale
DavidS wrote:We are showing a huge Pro:
THIS THREAD HAS COVERED A LOT OF GROUND ABOUT RISC OS, AND BBC BASIC.
I certainly don't want to rain on anyone's parade, as I have been and continue following this thread with great interest and am grateful for info that's been posted here, but what it hasn't covered quite so much ground on is that whole pros and cons thing... ;) (There's nothing wrong with that, of course - conversation will flow as it will.)

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:18 pm
by DavidS
tufty wrote:
DavidS wrote:We are showing a huge Pro:
THIS THREAD HAS COVERED A LOT OF GROUND ABOUT RISC OS, AND BBC BASIC. Would this happen with as much detail on any other "Modern" OS?
<steps back and looks at the majority of content on the forum>
Yes and not finding any thread about another complete well supported OS that goes into as much detail as seems to be common on the RISC OS forum here at raspberrypi.org. I have not seen anywhere that they talk about the architecture of the Linux or BSD kernel, or the strange archetecture of the X server, etc.... Though yet in many of the threads on RISC OS these things are descused in some level of detail. You could probably compose a reasonable refference from the topics on this RISC OS forum.

Further to the point, a 100% complete reference of RISC OS that is well layed out and discriptive would take less space than a quick and dirty complete reference on X11R6, not including WMs or anything else just the Server.

RISC OS can be understood in its entirety by a single person, while there other OSes that meet this qualification most of them are either relegated to history, have less than 10 users, or are no longer maintained and of little use, or are relegated to a verry narrow range of applications.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:32 am
by Markodius
rurwin wrote:..I expect processor cores to multiply by two every eighteen months from now on..
Sounds about right - they did it with RAM size and front side bus speed, CD rom units and hard drive capacities. Funny thing is if you run (even) Windows 3.1 on a 486 66mhz machine it seems really fecking fast compared to a more modern machine.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:56 am
by chocolate
This is my favorite OS for the Raspberry PI.

Pros

[*]Fastest OS on the PI with a desktop GUI by default. It is very lightweight.
[*]The desktop is very responsive. There is no lag when you drag windows around.
[*]Very easy to use. RISC OS might be different from a major OS like Windows, or GNU/Linux, but it has a easy to understand interface.

Cons

[*]The desktop will become very slow and unresponsive when you are copying or downloading a file.
[*]Netsurf doesn't support Java - They are working on Java support on the nightly builds. It's a temporary con.
[*]USB support isn't 100% there. When I play DOOM the keyboard would randomly lock up. When insert text in a text-box (on Netsurf), the keyboard would keep on imputing the same character until I press a random key. - Again, its another temporary con.

Minor complaints
[*]The OS looks a little dated. I like the look, but some-people may disagree with that.
[*]There isn't a theme switcher out of the box. You can install one, but I would like to see one bundled with RISC OS.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:44 pm
by AMcS
chocolate wrote:This is my favorite OS for the Raspberry PI.
When insert text in a text-box (on Netsurf), the keyboard would keep on imputing the same character until I press a random key. - Again, its another temporary con.
Is your keyboard attached DIRECTLY to the Pi or does it go via a USB Hub?

I found when typing in commands (at the BASIC command line - as simple and as undemanding an activity as you can get) that sometimes (randomly) the same character would repeat a few times... but only when attached via a HUB. If I plugged the same keyboard directly into the RPi the problem went away and simply doesn't happen.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:48 pm
by Markodius
Not that you were asking me.. but.. mine does it thru the hub and when attached directly. Oddly, it almost never happens when I'm overclocked and absolutely never on Raspbian.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:04 pm
by AMcS
Markodius wrote:Not that you were asking me..
Don't worry -the more feedback the better (and I'd rather if you've experienced something different to hear about it !)
Markodius wrote: but.. mine does it thru the hub and when attached directly. Oddly, it almost never happens when I'm overclocked and absolutely never on Raspbian.
It's weird alright - because given that I can't see any pattern to it, do you ?

Wonder why overclocking fixes it ? (Overclocking in computers usually speeds things up - but if anything can make systems more fragile and more likely to have "issues" - but in this case it doesn't).

Perhaps something is being missed (USB too quick for host ?) and overclocking might just improve response enough to allow the USB to be properly handled? Just a guess and just as likely to be wrong eh ?

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:35 pm
by Markodius
Yes - I too would have thought that overclocking would exacerbate the issue - but at stock speed with my keyboard RISCOS is near to unuseable missing many keypresses and repeating others until another key is pressed. I'm told that purchasing a cheaper keyboard will likely fix it completely - but I use Raspbian for a desktop at the moment and until I get another pi for RISCOS it's of no moment to me at the moment (..hah!) I hate the feel of cheap keyboards though. At the risk of making myself look foolish (no great risk really) I can only guess that RISCOS is too strict in what it expects and when from a keyboard as it's a very tight OS in terms of how long things take. Other OS's vary somewhat more in how long any given task will take. That's my two pennorth! In DavidS we trust!

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:29 am
by AMcS
Markodius wrote:Yes - I too would have thought that overclocking would exacerbate the issue - but at stock speed with my keyboard RISCOS is near to unuseable missing many keypresses and repeating others until another key is pressed. I'm told that purchasing a cheaper keyboard will likely fix it completely - but I use Raspbian for a desktop at the moment and until I get another pi for RISCOS it's of no moment to me at the moment (..hah!) I hate the feel of cheap keyboards though. At the risk of making myself look foolish (no great risk really) I can only guess that RISCOS is too strict in what it expects and when from a keyboard as it's a very tight OS in terms of how long things take. Other OS's vary somewhat more in how long any given task will take. That's my two pennorth! In DavidS we trust!
There's something a bit "variable" about all of this. I can run RISC OS (at stock speed I may add) using the keyboard that comes with the Maplin "RaspberryPi" kit (and a 512MB Pi) with no issue *except* when I connect it to the supplied Hub rather than the Pi itself.

It may require specific makes/models of keyboard/hub to exhibit the effect - or perhaps depend on interactions with specific software (a browser might tie up the OS more so that USB handling is degraded). You could try borrow and try a different keyboard - try it with something less demanding (typing lines of BASIC from the command line is good). Then try it with a HUB and see if that makes a difference.

Haven't seen anything from DavidS posted in recent times, which seems a little odd, I hope all is well with him.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:57 am
by chocolate
AMcS wrote:
chocolate wrote:This is my favorite OS for the Raspberry PI.
When insert text in a text-box (on Netsurf), the keyboard would keep on imputing the same character until I press a random key. - Again, its another temporary con.
Is your keyboard attached DIRECTLY to the Pi or does it go via a USB Hub?

I found when typing in commands (at the BASIC command line - as simple and as undemanding an activity as you can get) that sometimes (randomly) the same character would repeat a few times... but only when attached via a HUB. If I plugged the same keyboard directly into the RPi the problem went away and simply doesn't happen.
I don't own a USB hub. I have it directly connected to the PI. It's a rare occurrence.

What causes the problem:
When I'm copying text, somtimes c or v would repeat. When I type for a long durration, sometimes the last character would repeat. On older versions of RISC OS for the PI, the problem would occur more often. It happens more often on netsurf.

I have my PI set to the default clockspeed (unchanged). I'm using the first generation model b with 256MB of RAM.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:51 am
by timrowledge
rurwin wrote:
..I expect processor cores to multiply by two every eighteen months from now on..
Probably not, actually. There is an issue with utilisation that was discussed in the ACM journal just a while back (vol 56 no.2) that makes it look like we have a problem coming pretty soon. They suggest that over 35 cores is unlikely to work and we will get there within 10 years.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:45 am
by rurwin
ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/dburger/papers/ISCA11.pdf
Fascinating paper. The problem of parallelism is well known, but I think this paper over-rates it. It also limits its base data to Intel and AMD cores that are themselves based on ancient architectures. Not necessarily a fatal flaw, but a dangerous omission.

It says itself, that highly parallisable GPU tasks, such as ray-tracing, break their conclusions.

It is also the case that while super-computers may work on one task at once, modern PCs do not, and that trend will only increase. Separate processes are inherently parallisable, and don't even necessarily contend for memory bandwidth.

So when in a couple of year's time, your tablet is transcribing your words using data from face recognition to read your lips and take non-verbal cues from your expression, while simultaneously generating a lifelike avatar in 3D with lighting effects copied from the real environment, it will be doing so by using that so-called "dark silicon".

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:50 pm
by Markodius
I believed the upper limit of usefulness was about 100 cores - or is that just marketing noise?

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:00 pm
by dr_d_gee
AMcS wrote:There's something a bit "variable" about all of this. I can run RISC OS (at stock speed I may add) using the keyboard that comes with the Maplin "RaspberryPi" kit (and a 512MB Pi) with no issue *except* when I connect it to the supplied Hub rather than the Pi
Odd. I have the exact same setup as you—with the keyboard and mouse connected via the hub—and have had NO problems with RISC OS. I've had (very rare) problems with Raspbian, when I had a flash drive plugged in to the hub—since removing the wi-fi adapter (which doesn't work in RISC OS anyway) I've had no further problems. Suspect that perhaps the power supply *to the hub* perhaps wasn't giving enough power on occasions, but don't really know.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:11 pm
by AMcS
dr_d_gee wrote:
AMcS wrote:There's something a bit "variable" about all of this. I can run RISC OS (at stock speed I may add) using the keyboard that comes with the Maplin "RaspberryPi" kit (and a 512MB Pi) with no issue *except* when I connect it to the supplied Hub rather than the Pi
Odd. I have the exact same setup as you—with the keyboard and mouse connected via the hub—and have had NO problems with RISC OS. I've had (very rare) problems with Raspbian, when I had a flash drive plugged in to the hub—since removing the wi-fi adapter (which doesn't work in RISC OS anyway) I've had no further problems. Suspect that perhaps the power supply *to the hub* perhaps wasn't giving enough power on occasions, but don't really know.
One would expect an identical set up to behave, how shall it put it, identically - but clearly it doesn't (or I've missed something).

To fully list devices attached and OS version might help "eliminate" possible causes from our enquiries (if there's anything you use that I don't or visa versa that might suggest something):

My Pi runs RO 5.19 RC6 (it is 512MB but NOT a Hynix memory model), both CPU clock and memory speeds are at their defaults.

It has two devices attached to the board USB - the Maplin keyboard and the Maplin supplied HUB.
The hub has the mouse and (from time to time) a USB stick attached.

I run the Pi off an LG power adaptor rather than the Maplin one (for no particular reason).

I am NOT using the Ethernet connector (note this too internally - as I understand it - comes via the PI internal USB interface - so that may be another part of the puzzle to be considered).

Thing is the keyboard NEVER malfunctions when plugged into the PI USB port - it frequently does when plugged in via the USB HUB. Which seem to run counter to your experience. As both experiences are true I am at a loss to account for this.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:23 pm
by rurwin
dr_d_gee wrote:since removing the wi-fi adapter (which doesn't work in RISC OS anyway) I've had no further problems. Suspect that perhaps the power supply *to the hub* perhaps wasn't giving enough power on occasions, but don't really know.
I've had similar problems with a cheap "optionally-powered" hub on Windows XP. If a WiFi adapter was plugged in, the USB drive didn't work, even with the hub powered. I'd say your analysis was correct.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:34 pm
by dr_d_gee
AMcS wrote: One would expect an identical set up to behave, how shall it put it, identically - but clearly it doesn't (or I've missed something).

To fully list devices attached and OS version might help "eliminate" possible causes from our enquiries (if there's anything you use that I don't or visa versa that might suggest something):

My Pi runs RO 5.19 RC6 (it is 512MB but NOT a Hynix memory model), both CPU clock and memory speeds are at their defaults.

It has two devices attached to the board USB - the Maplin keyboard and the Maplin supplied HUB.
The hub has the mouse and (from time to time) a USB stick attached.

I run the Pi off an LG power adaptor rather than the Maplin one (for no particular reason).

I am NOT using the Ethernet connector (note this too internally - as I understand it - comes via the PI internal USB interface - so that may be another part of the puzzle to be considered).

Thing is the keyboard NEVER malfunctions when plugged into the PI USB port - it frequently does when plugged in via the USB HUB. Which seem to run counter to your experience. As both experiences are true I am at a loss to account for this.
Well, I have the Maplin keyboard and mouse, and sometimes a USB stick, connected to the hub; only the hub itself is connected to the Pi. I do have an ethernet cable connected, and use the Maplin power supply.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:22 pm
by Tirpitz
I report, I found out the keyboard stuttering issue also on my RasPi if keyboard is connected through KVM switch. KVM switch contains USB hub. If I connected keyboard directly to Pi, no stuttering observed. I think this issue with USB hubs should be really fix.

Re: RISC OS; Pros and Cons

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:05 pm
by AMcS
dr_d_gee wrote: Well, I have the Maplin keyboard and mouse, and sometimes a USB stick, connected to the hub; only the hub itself is connected to the Pi. I do have an ethernet cable connected, and use the Maplin power supply.
Thanks again for that. I think this is one of those cases where one has to be pragmatic - whatever works works. For some it'll mean attaching the keyboard direct to the Pi for others via a powered hub.

This, I fear, is one of those IT mysteries that will remain an IT mystery.