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RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:20 pm
by Markodius
Hi,

I tried RiscOS: It is almost unbelievably fast and performance increase from overclocking is jaw dropping. I'd like to install as much of RiscOS as is possible to a USB harddrive (not so much for speed - although that did work wonders for Raspbian - as for durability). As others have reported the SD card can corrupt when overclocking so I'd like the OS to load from Winchester.

Where should I start/look/ponder? Are there any RiscOS tutorials aimed at numpties with this in mind?

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:39 pm
by DavidS
Make sure that the only mas storage devices plugged in are the SD Card and the HDD and then follow these instructions. Though first because of the nature of this opperation I must give the fallowing warnings and disclaimer.
WARNING: MAKE SURE THAT YOUR HDD SHOWS AS A SCSI DEVICE (it should but there may be some strange fringe cases).
WARNING: THERE IS A RISK OF LOOSING ALL OF THE DATA ON THE RPi, IN CASE OF AN ERROR.

I AM NOT RESPONSABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES OR LOSS OF DATA THAT ACCURES FROM FOLOWING THESE INSTRUCTIONS.
  • STEP 1: Format the HDD as filecore (this can be done using !HForm that is included in the RPi Image in the 'Caution' folder that is in the 'Utilities' folder.

    STEP 2: Copy the contents of the SD Card's FileCore Partition to the newly formated HDD.

    STEP 3: Press [F12] to get a Star Prompt, and type the following (ending each line with enter).

    Code: Select all

    Configure FileSystem SCSI
    Configure Boot
    
    STEP 4: Press [Enter].

    STEP 5: Reboot.
That should do it.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:50 pm
by DavidS
In case you read the above before I noticed the missing steps, and typo. Please reread it as I edited it.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:22 pm
by Markodius
That seems refreshingly brief and simple! Thanks DavidS! :) My hard drive is 500GB SATA pulled from a PC. Riscos does not see it as a SCSI. When I !Configure and goto Disks Riscos sees 0 SCSI drives and 1 Floppy although the first partition (FAT32) on the drive is mounted and displayed in the taskbar correctly and the files on it are accessible. I really don't mind backing up and wiping the drive except if it's unsuitable target for RiscOS (I have Debian installed on other partitions).

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:48 pm
by DavidS
It will not show up in the Disks Cnfigure Window. If you can access it then it will use SCSI as FileSystem once reformated to FileCore.

The only possable issue is: I am not sure of the maximum size you can use for a FileCore file system. I think that RISC OS 5 has corrected the earlier issues with the limits of a file system, though you may wish to check with some one who has already set up a large FileCore file system. It would be a bit of a waste if you could only use 130GB on a 500GB HDD.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:09 pm
by nr.
I recently recovered an old 250GB SATA drive from a dead desktop, and hooked it up to the Pi using a USB to SATA cable wotsit. RISC OS sees something like 233GB free, which is encouraging. I've not tried booting from it, !HForm saw it, and formatted it as attached to the SCSI filesystem with no problems.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:26 pm
by DavidS
I am about to put a 500GB PATA drive in an USB to ATA case and see how it does, will let you know.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:12 pm
by Burngate
nr. wrote:I recently recovered an old 250GB SATA drive from a dead desktop, and hooked it up to the Pi using a USB to SATA cable wotsit. RISC OS sees something like 233GB free, which is encouraging. I've not tried booting from it, !HForm saw it, and formatted it as attached to the SCSI filesystem with no problems.
I don't know whether it's still the case, but when I did this - on a RiscPC, 4.39 - it was quite happy.
!HForm formatted it successfully, and Free said it had 250GB available

BUT
When I'd put ~ 127GB on it it was fine
Another GB and it wasn't - RISC OS couldn't see it.

So I've got a drive with ~128GB of data on it I can't see

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:26 pm
by DavidS
Works greate with RISC OS 5.19. I formatted and booted from a 500GB HDD. Showing 499GB free.
Burngate wrote:I don't know whether it's still the case, but when I did this - on a RiscPC, 4.39 - it was quite happy.
!HForm formatted it successfully, and Free said it had 250GB available
Yes RISC OS ltd had fixed it a long time ago. I was not sure if it were still a problem with Castle/ROOL versions.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:34 pm
by Markodius
Thanks chaps - I shall proceed forthwith 8) but may be some time!

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:44 pm
by Tide
I'm not sure but I think you don't want to do that. The problem with Filecore is, that it's significantly slower than FAT32. Boot however has to be on a Filecore formatted drive. The usual setup on R-Comp's ARMini seems to be a small pen drive for boot and a larger spinning or SSD drive for all your programs and data. The latter would be FAT formatted.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:14 pm
by DavidS
Tide wrote:I'm not sure but I think you don't want to do that. The problem with Filecore is, that it's significantly slower than FAT32. Boot however has to be on a Filecore formatted drive. The usual setup on R-Comp's ARMini seems to be a small pen drive for boot and a larger spinning or SSD drive for all your programs and data. The latter would be FAT formatted.
Yes Fat32 is faster. But do not use it on RISC OS. There is no reason that FileCore could not be just as fast as FAT32, it just needs a bit of development.

FileCore has two HUGE advantages over FAT32 on RISC OS:
  • . 1: It stores the file type (FAT32 Does not [the FS module for FAT32 fakes it poorly])
    . 2: The FileCore format is more reliable (less probability of data loss), while FileCore may not be the perfect on disk FS structure it is a lot better than FAT32.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:52 pm
by Markodius
Hey Tide and DavidS,

I hear what you are saying - there are always pros and cons - the drive will be useless on other operating systems? a large factor to many. For me I'm happy to try filecore as the drive will be dedicated to that purpose. :) I'm not too worried about the theoretical thruput as it's connecting under USB2 so it can never be optimum. Has anyone tried filecore on an SSD? Wish I had one to try it on! No spindle to spin.. no read/write heads a waggling back and forth!

Just pulling off my data to elsewhere..

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:11 am
by microbitsuk
No problems with an SSD drive works fine with filecore just use HForm in utilities.caution folder.
David missed a step
On a Pi boot from SDcard start Risc OS
press CTRL & F12 to get a task window
enter Con. filesystem SCSI press return
enter con. scsifsdrive 4 press enter and close task window.
connect your new drive to USB port and format it with Hform
it will put an icon on the Iconbar with a any name you used or Hard disc 4 pressing menu over the drive
will give you SCSI:4 dismount, share, free at the bottom.
copy the contents of the SD drive over to your new drive, after this is done all you need to do is restart your Pi or panda beagleboard from your new Harddrive SSD.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:18 am
by DavidS
@microbitsuk:
Thank you. It can be dificult to remember every thing when giving instructions.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:14 pm
by Markodius
I'm happy to confirm that the instructions work fine, thanks. I ended up using some tatty old 150gb and it worked first time. I'm having a little trouble with one of the drives. The 500gb is a Western Digital WD5000avvs. When formatting with !HForm I get 'Error &11AAC Drive not known. Possibly because WD considered a gigabyte to be 1 billion bytes when they made mine. Apparently they are now giving away free software to unfortunate owners.

http://gizmodo.com/183980/western-digit ... ty-lawsuit

So I suspect that the !HForm utility is quite right when it reports unknown disk - but for a song can anybody tell me how to obtain the CHS parameters and the lzone for my somewhat deficient MSD?

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:32 am
by DavidS
With newer HDDs (almost everything bigger than 130GB) the CHS is faked. So just calculate a set of parameters that fits the TRUE size of the drive, and they should work. I am not shure if !HForm cheats at all on this or not (I have never had to manually enter the parammeters).

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:04 pm
by Markodius
Thanks again DavidS. I stumbled upon 'hdparm' for Linux returns geometry for attached drives. Although it's result differed somewhat from FileCore's the results equate similarly. The drive may well be faulty from HFormat's perspective although it formats without issue under Linux and Windows. I don't know much about Windows formatting except that it doesn't. So I'll plop it back into a PC ready to store some more white space ;)

Thanks for taking me thru this procedure - I have learned a thing or three!

Finally, here's the song..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBdr5vVqvs

Wants list:
RiscOS disk
Nutpi for Pi-nuts
New Winchester

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:19 pm
by biker
Hi I'am new to this so forgive me if I seem a bit thick
I've got 2 2.5 ide drives one 30 gig one 40 gig . I can both formated with !Hform and everything seem OK but I can not copy the content of the sdcard to any of them . I get an error when it get to ghostscrip .8_54.doc readme/htm . I've even tried it with a formated 16 gig usb stick

any help please am pullin me hair out

Thank's

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:36 pm
by DavidS
It sounds like something has your document open for writing. Have you rebooted and then tried (with nothing extra running)?

If that des not help chck the files access details (it is in the menu you get when you menu click on th file, the sub menu for the file, the Access submenu, the Access Details submenu), and make sure that it is readable.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:41 pm
by biker
Hi Dave
I had done both and always reboot before retrying
forgot to say I can format a 2 gig usb stick and copy to that ok
plus my drive has 16 heads -63 sec per track -16383 cyl but if I use this in Hform it formats to 8gig
if I plug in to a pc that tells me it's 255 head - 63 sect -3648 cyl and they format it to 27.9 gig

thanks for any hlep
Biker

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:07 pm
by DavidS
16 heads * 64 SPT (63 zero based) * 16384 cyl (again zero base so add 1) * 512 bytes per sector = 8589934592. And 8589934592 /1024 /1024 / 1024 = 8. So that geomentry defines a 8GB drive.
Try 16 heads, 64 spt, 61440 cyl and you hould get 30.0GB.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:08 am
by colin B
Just pondering out loud, I thought the Pi has to boot from SD card, although everything else can be on external media, or am I just confused?

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:12 am
by Markodius
No, you're quite right. RiscOS loads an image from the SD card but everything else can be loaded from hard drive. Apps, modules and the like. It might negate SD card corruption when overclocking.

Re: RiscOS: Installing to hard drive

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:29 pm
by Markodius
Weeell, I'd assumed that a hard drive might behave somewhat better in terms of OS corruption and collapse than as SD card but I had a hard drive corrupt last night - possibly a result of overclocking. Bad sector size under FAT32 seemed to be the problem. fsck under Linux seems to have rectified it. Does RiscOS have any equivalent maintenance software I wonder? It's also possible that the drive is faulty but it performs well under Linux and Windows.