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DavidS
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RISC OS Pi?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm

It seems that RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi is getting less attention here than it used to. Not long ago RISC OS was about second in what people talked about for an OS on the Raspberry Pi on these forums, first always being Raspbian GNU/Linux.

In 20111/2012 there were statements by people representing the RPi Foundation that implied that they would always promote and support the use of RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi. What happened?

There were even many resources that popped up all over the web dedicated to RISC OS on the RPi, including some of the earliest third party sites promoting the Raspberry Pi for its intended educational usage.

RISC OS: A truly usable Operating System:
I have heard some people attempt to say that there is a lot that RISC OS can not do. This is untrue.

Things I do in RISC OS include:
  • Gaming, of course.
  • Software development (C, ARM BASIC, C++, Charm, ARM Assembly, Lua, Python, Scratch, and many more are all available for RISC OS).
  • Web Browsing, including watching Youtube and similar.
  • Using a WiFi network to connect to the internet, through an Ethernet to WiFi Bridge (cheaper than most USB WiFi dongles that have the same range).
  • Instant messaging, IRC, etc.
  • Video Editing.
  • Sound editing.
  • Graphics Editing.
  • 3D Modelling (mostly for 3D printing in my case).
  • Emulating other computers, and game consoles.
  • Writing and testing RPi bare metal code.
  • Word Processing (I am writing 3 books, slowly but surely).
  • Spread sheet (sometimes useful for figuring up data sets).
  • And much much more.
There are many other things that others do on RISC OS as well, including:
  • Hosting a Web server.
  • Hosting other Internet servers.
  • Large database management.
  • Even Cloud computing (yuck).
So RISC OS is a quite capable OS for modern usage. And it looks a lot more modern than most Linux Desktop environments now, as well as more modern in appearance than what M$ are selling now (seems like everyone is going back to the mid 1980's GUI look now, to old fashioned looking for me).

Jul-07-2019@08:30 EDIT: Corrected some errors in spelling and wording.
Last edited by DavidS on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hippy
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:47 pm

DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm
In 20111/2012 there were statements by people representing the RPi Foundation that implied that they would always promote and support the use of RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi. What happened?
There were also expressed desires to open source the Pi such that others could and would clone the Pi by the million. I would guess, like that, things change.

Only the Foundation can give their answer, but, if the Pi were my creation, and I were looking at how things stand now, I would say there was little business case for promoting or supporting RISC OS, just as there's little business case for promoting anything but Raspbian, other than in passing.

I think it would be up to a third party to make the case that there is a business case for more promotion or support of whatever they thought should be promoted or supported better.

And that would have to start with a convincing answer to the age old; why should I invest in this, which would seemingly only benefit a few, when I can invest the same in something else, and benefit many more ?

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:58 pm

RISC OS: A truly usable Operating System:
I have heard some people attempt to say that there is a lot that RISC OS can not do. This is untrue.

Things I do in RISC OS include:
C++
What C++ compiler do you use under RISC OS?

Web Browsing, including watching Youtube and similar.
Really? Which RISC OS browser do you use to watch YouTube videos?

Video Editing
Which RISC OS video editor do you use, and what compression formats can it import and export?


Supplementary question: if I accidentally delete a file under a RISC OS file system (we've all done this), how do I undelete it so as to recover it?


Cheers,
David.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:13 am

DaveW75 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:58 pm
RISC OS: A truly usable Operating System:
I have heard some people attempt to say that there is a lot that RISC OS can not do. This is untrue.

Things I do in RISC OS include:
C++
What C++ compiler do you use under RISC OS?
Most usually GCC. Sometimes LCC (if targetting ARMv6 and earlier, running on ARMv6). And I used to use Norcroft C (RISC OS DDE).
Web Browsing, including watching Youtube and similar.
Really? Which RISC OS browser do you use to watch YouTube videos?
That is the nice thing about it in RISC OS, you do not need the bloat and slow down of a browser that supports it, it is much faster to just use Murnong to extract the video URL, then use a patched version of FFPLAY to stream the video from the server. Much faster than using a browser that is parsing all that JS and other scripting stuff in a youtube page.
Video Editing
Which RISC OS video editor do you use, and what compression formats can it import and export?
I had a purchased and licensed copy of Video Runner for RISC OS that I purchased when it was still around from a local vendor here in the United States. While it is limited to MPG1/2 and a few other compression formats that used to be common, FFMPEG can be used to convert between other formats so it is not a problem.

Video runner came with a license for the paid licensee to modify it, along with its source so long as it is not redistribute any version (except through the no longer around RISC-VID software house)

There are many other programs out there for video editing on RISC OS. Some of which are free and open source. Remember that video editing was probably the single most consistent usage of the RiscPC RISC OS computers in the United States in the mid 1990's.
Supplementary question: if I accidentally delete a file under a RISC OS file system (we've all done this), how do I undelete it so as to recover it?
That is one that I do not think about to much. Though there are tools for that job, give me a bit and later tonight I can give a better answer (running Raspbian for a few minutes do to a programming challenge, need to reboot to RISC OS).


Cheers,
David.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:05 am

Well if you have a 64bit version of RiscOS I would be happy to move to it.
https://gitlab.riscosopen.org/RiscOS/So ... requests/2
Soon?

I believe Free Pascal is nearly working in it.
I don't use C if I can help it these days, mostly Ultibo which is FPC based.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:11 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:05 am
Well if you have a 64bit version of RiscOS I would be happy to move to it.
https://gitlab.riscosopen.org/RiscOS/So ... requests/2
Soon?

I believe Free Pascal is nearly working in it.
I don't use C if I can help it these days, mostly Ultibo which is FPC based.
There is no version of RiscOS at all on the Raspberry Pi (RiscOS is a n*x style OS for MIPS CPU's).

Though RISC OS is by its very core nature tied to certain aspects of the AARCH32 ISA, so no 64-BIT. This has been discussed on the ROOL forums many times.

Now it is possible to have a kernel that runs in 64-BIT and keeps the rest of the OS in a 32-bit AARCH32 USER Mode layer.


The RPi 4 Port is to boot in AARCH32 mode.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:01 pm

DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm
[*]Using a WiFi network to connect to the internet.
But not via the onboard wifi, though. Ethernet wifi APs don't count.

You might be able to get an ESP8266 SLIP serial wifi router to work directly from the GPIO pins, though. Wouldn't be very fast, but it would be cheap.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:15 pm

scruss wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:01 pm
DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm
[*]Using a WiFi network to connect to the internet.
But not via the onboard wifi, though. Ethernet wifi APs don't count.

You might be able to get an ESP8266 SLIP serial wifi router to work directly from the GPIO pins, though. Wouldn't be very fast, but it would be cheap.
Yes I use an external peripheral for that, the same as you would on an RPi that does not have a WiFi device on board. The only difference is that the dongle I use plugs into the Ethernet port, does not require an additional driver, and costs less than the normal USB dongles.

Also not an access point (AP) (which would provide a WiFi hotspot from a wired network). It is a WiFi to Ethernet bridge (the one I use could also be configured as an AP if it were plugged into a router instead of the RPi).

Updated the Original Post to better reflect this fact.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:47 pm

DaveW75 wrote:Supplementary question: if I accidentally delete a file under a RISC OS file system (we've all done this), how do I undelete it so as to recover it?
There are a couple of utilities aroun to undelete files in RISC OS. It is not as simple as it is in something that uses a FS like FAT, ADFS is quite different, chances of recovering a deleted file are alright if you can identify the start of the file (ADFS attempts to keep files continous for the most part), the FS is unlikely to be of much help though.

This goes back to the old addage of using computers, keep backups, and keep your backups up to date.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:46 pm

DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:13 am
DaveW75 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:58 pm
Web Browsing, including watching Youtube and similar.
Really? Which RISC OS browser do you use to watch YouTube videos?
That is the nice thing about it in RISC OS, you do not need the bloat and slow down of a browser that supports it, it is much faster to just use Murnong to extract the video URL, then use a patched version of FFPLAY to stream the video from the server. Much faster than using a browser that is parsing all that JS and other scripting stuff in a youtube page.
Sounds like a lot of faffing about to me. If that all just auto-magically happens when one clicks "play" that's great, but I suspect not.

I am happy to accept that users of RISC OS could do pretty much all they could with Raspbian or other Linux-flavoured OS, but what's the compelling reasons to use RISC OS instead ? What are the compelling reasons not to ?

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:07 am

hippy wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:46 pm
DavidS wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:13 am
DaveW75 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:58 pm

Really? Which RISC OS browser do you use to watch YouTube videos?
That is the nice thing about it in RISC OS, you do not need the bloat and slow down of a browser that supports it, it is much faster to just use Murnong to extract the video URL, then use a patched version of FFPLAY to stream the video from the server. Much faster than using a browser that is parsing all that JS and other scripting stuff in a youtube page.
Sounds like a lot of faffing about to me. If that all just auto-magically happens when one clicks "play" that's great, but I suspect not.
Not yet, though I know of two people that are working on patches for NetSurf on RISC OS to do just that :), so maybe in the near future. For now what has to be done is drag the page out of NetSurf onto the running Murnong Icon on the IconBar then click on a button to play the video.
I am happy to accept that users of RISC OS could do pretty much all they could with Raspbian or other Linux-flavoured OS, but what's the compelling reasons to use RISC OS instead ? What are the compelling reasons not to ?
Use whatever OS you prefer. No one is pushing any particular OS.

Though reasons one may consider RISC OS include:
  • More open source than even Linux, at least now.
  • It is the original ARM Operating System, and still maintained.
  • It is smaller (fewer lines of codes means easier to keep up with debugging).
  • It is faster for most things.
  • It provides a lot more helpful functions without having to go through the C Library or other extension libraries (such as converting between integers and text for example).
  • It is different.
  • It is very easy to program for, regardless of your language of choice. It is actually possible for a single person to learn the entire API of the OS.
  • It is very easy to extend and/or modify to your needs.
  • It is very fast.
  • Builtin to the OS ROM itself is a high speed BBC BASIC V interpreter. Also there is an assembler that support ALL AARCH32 (classic ARM) opcodes.
  • It is now more Open Source than Linux.
  • More well refined Educational software available do to its heritage.
Now there is the downside that it is a good bit different to use than other OS's (the others are mostly nearly the same, not so with RISC OS). Though those of us that use it on a daily basis feel that it is easier once you learn how to use it, and become accustomed to using it.

Like I said though, use whatever OS you want, no one is pushing any particular OS.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:47 pm

DavidS wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:07 am
...
Though reasons one may consider RISC OS include:
  • It is different.
Now there is the downside that it is a good bit different to use than other OS's.
I tend to see things slightly differently - RISC OS is what I grew up with, so it's all the other OS's that are different.

It seems there are a spectrum of people: those at one end like things different, and those at the other like things to stay the same.

Windows users seem to be at the far end of the latter; Linux users fall in the middle.
I've got a foot at both extremes, which at times can get extremely uncomfortable, particularly when I shut down both Windows and RiscOS and try to get my head round Raspbian. Which conjures pictures of unhealthy anatomical practices.

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:05 pm

Burngate wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:47 pm
DavidS wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:07 am
...
Though reasons one may consider RISC OS include:
  • It is different.
Now there is the downside that it is a good bit different to use than other OS's.
I tend to see things slightly differently - RISC OS is what I grew up with, so it's all the other OS's that are different.
You and me both. Many people ask many questions about how to do everything In RISC OS when they get started.

It is only a downside for those that are accustomed to M$-Windows, X based Desktop Environments, Macintosh Systems, Atari TOS, Amiga, NeXT, and BeOS/HaikuOS. They all made everything nearly identical as far as the user interface is concerned.

For those of us that have used it since the late 1980's everything else is different. Thank you I needed some positive this morning :) .
It seems there are a spectrum of people: those at one end like things different, and those at the other like things to stay the same.
Yes that is for sure.
Hence it being both on the pros and cons. Thinking about everyone that may be reading the post.
Windows users seem to be at the far end of the latter; Linux users fall in the middle.
I've got a foot at both extremes, which at times can get extremely uncomfortable, particularly when I shut down both Windows and RiscOS and try to get my head round Raspbian. Which conjures pictures of unhealthy anatomical practices.
I agree mostly with that. Though I do not use windows at all anymore (got sick of it).

Yes Raspbian has an interesting Desktop environment (polite, being, I am). I have in the past installed the ROX desktop just to get something a little more sane, though can no longer get even that to work.

Thankfully it is almost never needed to play in Linux anymore. RISC OS is getting back up to speed again on capabilities, so it is still my primary Operating System. Looking forward to seeing how it does on the RPi 4B.

Though I do have to wonder if the 4B is going to break Aemulor for our 26-bit R15 programs?
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:38 am

DavidS,
Though reasons one may consider RISC OS include:
I'm sure there are many reasons to look at RISC OS. Or any OS you are not familiar with. Maybe it does not do what you want, the way you want it, but if you are lucky there is something new to learn in what it does or how it does it.

But...
More open source than even Linux, at least now.
Is a ridiculously false statement.
It is the original ARM Operating System, and still maintained.
And therefor a dead end as it's written in assembler and is likely never going to run on any new architectures, even from ARM.
It is smaller (fewer lines of codes means easier to keep up with debugging).
Small is good. Functionality takes size.
It is faster for most things.
Shall we have a race? I feel a new challenge coming on...
It provides a lot more helpful functions without having to go through the C Library or other extension libraries (such as converting between integers and text for example).
Meh.
It is different.
Different is interesting. Compatible is useful.
It is very easy to program for, regardless of your language of choice. It is actually possible for a single person to learn the entire API of the OS.
I suspect many peoples language of choice is not even available on RISC OS.
It is very easy to extend and/or modify to your needs.
If you want to use assembler I guess.
It is very fast.
See above.
Builtin to the OS ROM itself is a high speed BBC BASIC V interpreter. Also there is an assembler that support ALL AARCH32 (classic ARM) opcodes.
That is neat. How do I change it to JS or Python or some such?
It is now more Open Source than Linux.
Yeah, right.
More well refined Educational software available do to its heritage.
No idea. Are schools today stuffed with RISC OS machines?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:24 am

DavidS wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm
It seems that RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi is getting less attention here than it used to. Not long ago RISC OS was about second in what people talked about for an OS on the Raspberry Pi on these forums, first always being Raspbian GNU/Linux.

In 20111/2012 there were statements by people representing the RPi Foundation that implied that they would always promote and support the use of RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi. What happened?

There were even many resources that popped up all over the web dedicated to RISC OS on the RPi, including some of the earliest third party sites promoting the Raspberry Pi for its intended educational usage.

RISC OS: A truly usable Operating System:
I have heard some people attempt to say that there is a lot that RISC OS can not do. This is untrue.

Things I do in RISC OS include:
  • Gaming, of course.
  • Software development (C, ARM BASIC, C++, Charm, ARM Assembly, Lua, Python, Scratch, and many more are all available for RISC OS).
  • Web Browsing, including watching Youtube and similar.
  • Using a WiFi network to connect to the internet, through an Ethernet to WiFi Bridge (cheaper than most USB WiFi dongles that have the same range).
  • Instant messaging, IRC, etc.
  • Video Editing.
  • Sound editing.
  • Graphics Editing.
  • 3D Modelling (mostly for 3D printing in my case).
  • Emulating other computers, and game consoles.
  • Writing and testing RPi bare metal code.
  • Word Processing (I am writing 3 books, slowly but surely).
  • Spread sheet (sometimes useful for figuring up data sets).
  • And much much more.
There are many other things that others do on RISC OS as well, including:
  • Hosting a Web server.
  • Hosting other Internet servers.
  • Large database management.
  • Even Cloud computing (yuck).
So RISC OS is a quite capable OS for modern usage. And it looks a lot more modern than most Linux Desktop environments now, as well as more modern in appearance than what M$ are selling now (seems like everyone is going back to the mid 1980's GUI look now, to old fashioned looking for me).

Jul-07-2019@08:30 EDIT: Corrected some errors in spelling and wording.
This is being worked on by the RISCOS people - there's a thread on the RISCOS forum.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:36 pm

Heater wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:38 am
DavidS,
Though reasons one may consider RISC OS include:
I'm sure there are many reasons to look at RISC OS. Or any OS you are not familiar with. Maybe it does not do what you want, the way you want it, but if you are lucky there is something new to learn in what it does or how it does it.

But...
More open source than even Linux, at least now.
Is a ridiculously false statement.
A year ago I would have agreed with you, as it was restricted in its license.

Now however it is licensed under the Appache license (which is more open than the GPL).

Have you read the two licenses?
It is smaller (fewer lines of codes means easier to keep up with debugging).
Small is good. Functionality takes size.
The OS provides more functionality than Linux with X and a Dexktop Environment. So I am not sure where you are comming from on that one. Now outside of the OS there are areas where RISC OS has fallen a little behind, though these are being worked on (WiFi, Web Browsers, and the like).

And I will admit that the way we have to use the GPU and OpenGL is a bit off as we have to go arround the OS.

And yet the OS plus Windowing System plus normal command line tools plus Window Manager Plus Desktop Environment has fewer lines of code than most examples of Linux.
It is faster for most things.
Shall we have a race? I feel a new challenge coming on...
Well I think I may start a new thread in the RISC OS sub-forum here for that concept. Though before I do what are you thinking (unfortunately OpenGL is one area RISC OS has to catchup on)?

I think that identical applications, perhaps in the vein of scene demos would be the way to go.
It is different.
Different is interesting. Compatible is useful.
It is very easy to program for, regardless of your language of choice. It is actually possible for a single person to learn the entire API of the OS.
I suspect many peoples language of choice is not even available on RISC OS.
I suspect you would be surprised. We have C (up to ISO C11), C++, Lua, Charm, BASIC, Python, and many others. Only listed the ones that are very high on the list (and omited assembly for reason).
It is very easy to extend and/or modify to your needs.
If you want to use assembler I guess.
Or C, C++, Pascal, BASIC, or a great number of other languages that you can write modules in for RISC OS.
[
Builtin to the OS ROM itself is a high speed BBC BASIC V interpreter. Also there is an assembler that support ALL AARCH32 (classic ARM) opcodes.
That is neat. How do I change it to JS or Python or some such?
no need to change it. Just use Python if that is what you want. If you really want you could port NodeJS (UnixLib should provide all the needed support).
It is now more Open Source than Linux.
Yeah, right.
see above, apache is more open source than GPL. Yes it is only recently that it went full open source, though it is NOW more open source than Linux.
More well refined Educational software available do to its heritage.
No idea. Are schools today stuffed with RISC OS machines?
I think that more and more schools are using Raspberry Pi computers, yes.

Though most education should accure at home, not at school.




ALSO: Use what OS you wish. No one is saying you have to use RISC OS. These are just reasons that someone may see what RISC OS is about, and see if they like it or not.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:54 pm

I loved to use and program the Acorn Archimedes for many years from the ARM2 to the StrongARM, and I won't forget the best Elite version ever, the version on the Archimedes.

So when the first Raspberry Pi was presented, its ability to run RISC OS on a real machine again, was the extra reason for me to buy one ASAP.

Today I mainly use Raspbian on my Pi1, Pi2 and Pi3, because my family does do our daily work and hobby stuff on Linux machines anyway, so everything is familiar within the Linux universe.

However I always read the news concerning RISC OS, because it's been the best OS I knew. And I am happy when it also runs on the Pi4, since sooner or later I'm going to buy one.

So, interesting thread here. I particularly like David's arguments, they're old school, like I am.

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 pm

Fidelius wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:54 pm
I loved to use and program the Acorn Archimedes for many years from the ARM2 to the StrongARM, and I won't forget the best Elite version ever, the version on the Archimedes.

So when the first Raspberry Pi was presented, its ability to run RISC OS on a real machine again, was the extra reason for me to buy one ASAP.

Today I mainly use Raspbian on my Pi1, Pi2 and Pi3, because my family does do our daily work and hobby stuff on Linux machines anyway, so everything is familiar within the Linux universe.

However I always read the news concerning RISC OS, because it's been the best OS I knew. And I am happy when it also runs on the Pi4, since sooner or later I'm going to buy one.
You and me both. I am waiting until I know that RISC OS runs on the RPi 4B before I order one.

So, interesting thread here. I particularly like David's arguments, they're old school, like I am.
Thank you. I think it is because I still believe in the dream of the user of a computer having power on the computer they use.

And we are able to run Arc Elite still today on the Raspberry Pi series thanks to the ADFFFS project. Of course could also fire up ArcEmu in RISC OS and run it under RISC OS 3.1.

We are also able to play Zarch (the Archimedes/RISC OS version being again the best [and original] version)
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:32 pm

Very true, David.

I too love it when we users of a computer have power on the computer we use. That's one reason I don't like "smart"-phones.

It's nice that the Pi gets more and more open. And RISC OS was or rather is controllable. Still have the "PRMs" (Programmer's Reference Manuals) standing in the attic.

And indeed, how could we forget David Braben's excellent Zarch and Conqueror on the Archimedes, with 256 colour smooth 3D graphics, miles ahead to their Atari/Amiga conversions (Zarch → "Virus") with 16 colours and slower graphics (despite Mr. Braben himself having done the conversions).

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:01 pm

DavidS wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 pm
You and me both. I am waiting until I know that RISC OS runs on the RPi 4B before I order one.
Progress has been good apparently, still a way to go.
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:47 pm

DavidS,
Now however it is licensed under the Appache license (which is more open than the GPL).
In what way is the Apache license more open that the GPL?

Yes I have read them. Why else would I be talking about them.
I think that identical applications, perhaps in the vein of scene demos would be the way to go.
I thought of an OpenGL comparison. Seems that is a no go.

My other though was measuring the throughput of a web or other server.
I suspect you would be surprised. We have C...
Which of the 20 or so languages among the Fibonacci Challenge entries can you run on your RISC OS machine: https://github.com/ZiCog/fibo_4784969
They all come from this forum so they are indicative of languages people are using here.

If you can run them, what timings do you get on your Pi RISC OS machine. Would be an interesting check of your claims already.
No one is saying you have to use RISC OS.
I appreciate that. Just trying to separate fact from fiction from among the wild claims made for it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:43 am

Heater wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:47 pm
DavidS,
Now however it is licensed under the Appache license (which is more open than the GPL).
In what way is the Apache license more open that the GPL?
The same way that the MIT license and BSD license are more open than GPL or did you forget the reason that submissions to the OBEX require the use of a MIT license (as GPL is to restrictive).
Yes I have read them. Why else would I be talking about them.
I think that identical applications, perhaps in the vein of scene demos would be the way to go.
I thought of an OpenGL comparison. Seems that is a no go.
Technically possible, though that takes a bit of extra time and work do to having to go around the OS. Not to mention it would not be a valid test of the OS because OpenGL is an extension not part of the OS.
My other though was measuring the throughput of a web or other server.
While definitely possible, very difficult to measure in a provable way (do to changes in network conditions across the internet).
I suspect you would be surprised. We have C...
Which of the 20 or so languages among the Fibonacci Challenge entries can you run on your RISC OS machine: https://github.com/ZiCog/fibo_4784969
They all come from this forum so they are indicative of languages people are using here.
That I know of for sure (may be others of those that I do not know about as well):
  • ALGO 60
  • BASIC
  • C++
  • C
  • Javascript (though only interperatered, not JIT).
  • Java (though older version, way older version).
  • Python.
  • Smalltalk.
Obviously I only have the ones I actually use. Though those are the ones I know will run on current RISC OS systems.

Of course you can port more if you wish. And there may be some of the others for RISC OS that I am not aware of.
If you can run them, what timings do you get on your Pi RISC OS machine. Would be an interesting check of your claims already.
Interesting point, I guess I will have to run one or more of those. As they are single core programs it makes it fairly simple to do (SMP is new to RISC OS so still a bit more difficult than need be).

Though I do not know what it would prove, as that does not make much use of the OS, and the speed claim is of the OS not of anything else. Hence my recommendation of a simple demo. One that the only changes to the two versions would be for the system calls, the Linux version using X or Framebuffer for its graphics output and ALSA for its sound output, while the RISC OS version would use VDU+OS_SpriteOP for graphics operations, and SharedSound for Sound operations. Thus we are testing the speed of the OS (not of what the compiler produces).

I appreciate that. Just trying to separate fact from fiction from among the wild claims made for it.
No wild claims. Would you like to see how fast the OS is (not the speed of code that does not use the OS, the speed of the Actual OS), I have offered the opportunity.

Or are you just trying to kill a good thread?
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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:24 am

DavidS,
The same way that the MIT license and BSD license are more open than GPL or did you forget the reason that submissions to the OBEX require the use of a MIT license (as GPL is to restrictive).
I reject the claim that a license which allows my open source code publications to be incorporated into and distributed in other peoples closed source software is "more open". It clearly is not.

As it happens, my open source publications are so trivial and/or useless that I really don't care much one way or the other. If somebody is smart enough to find a way to make a buck or two out of using it in their closed source software then good for them.

What I do need is a license that that prevents anyone putting the blame on me when they are dumb enough to use my code and results in their house burning down or other such disaster.
While definitely possible, very difficult to measure in a provable way (do to changes in network conditions across the internet)
Who said anything about "across the internet". The performance an behavior of a web server or other IP server can be evaluated in the controlled conditions of local LAN connections.
As they are single core programs it makes it fairly simple to do (SMP is new to RISC OS so still a bit more difficult than need be).
So what you are saying is the exercising graphics is not a good test of RISC OS, neither is a networking, and neither is multi-threading.

What does that leave? Perhaps some kind of work on files and file systems.
No wild claims. Would you like to see how fast the OS is (not the speed of code that does not use the OS, the speed of the Actual OS), I have offered the opportunity.
That is exactly what I'm getting at. But we seem to have no way to compare RISC OS vs other operating systems.
Or are you just trying to kill a good thread?
Nope. Just separate the reality from the hype, as I said.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:01 am

DavidS wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:43 am

That I know of for sure (may be others of those that I do not know about as well):
  • ALGOL 60
  • BASIC
  • C++
  • C
  • Javascript (though only interperated, not JIT).
  • Java (though older version, way older version).
  • Python.
  • Smalltalk.
The C and C++ are very old too (gcc 4.7 vs the current 9.1) so all the standards supported will be old versions. I have on my Pi's, full support for C++17, Fortran 2018, C18, Python 3.7.2, D, and Ada, Go, Objective-C and others if I want it. Plus all the support tools, profiling, make, test coverage generation, run time validation, etc etc. It is what I consider a "rich" software development environment and I find other OS's lacking by comparison.

DavidS,

I keep wondering if perhaps instead of writing a new C compiler perhaps you could use your considerable talent to upgrading the existing GCC to the latest version ?

Doing so would be really helpful for RISC-OS and its users - it would give them most of the above mentioned modern languages in one go! Plus better diagnostics, far better code generation, and the sanitizers.

The GCC install is, at the end of the day, just a very large, but fairly standard, software build. It takes 3 to 4 hours on a Pi4 depending on the number of languages selected (and about two days on a Pi Zero - but it does work fine!!).

Also by completing this multi-million line compilation, it would demonstrate that RISC-OS is in fact a robust and capable software development environment.

Same goes for Python 3.7 - a much smaller build as its just one language.

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Re: RISC OS Pi?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:43 am

jahboater,

That is an excellent idea. If DavidS got 9.1 working on RISC OS we would have a level playing field for the forthcoming RISC OS / Linux comparison.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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