chinaguy
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Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:34 am

Can the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Scratch Foundation get their heads together and fix the Scratch 3.0 using 99% cpu error. I will be using a room full of 30 RP3B+ in September for Primary School classes and I need this issued FIXED!
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:48 am

While I can understand the frustration, making demands for free work never go down well, especially when presented like this.
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chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:36 am

The Raspberry Pi and Scratch Foundations receive millions of Pounds/Dollars in Government and Charity Donations with the said intentions of improving the computer education of the general public and students in education.

This Scratch 3.0 issue using 99-100% has been a know issue ever since the Scratch 3.0 Beta was released and there seems no rush to "fix" the issue.

I don't wish to waste hundreds of pounds on buying resources and precious hours of man power based on Scratch 2.0 when 3.0 is available and all new published resources are now based on the latest software. Also we have invested money/time/effort in the MicroBits that can easily work with the Scratch 3.0 on other platforms.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation is now one of the largest organizations in the UK if not the world responsible for improving the education of computer science to school children, it is no longer amateur hour in the classroom.

I can easily handle issues in using the Raspberry Pi in the classroom, the other 99 primary school teachers can't even change the batteries in a torch!

Don't even get me started on PiNet using the Beta version to work with the 3B+!
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:10 am

As I said, your frustration is not hard to understand / see, but making demands gets you nowhere. It would be better to ask what the current situation is and what work is being done, if any, than to assert that a non profit organisation must do something which is only a small part of the many things they are busy doing.

Are you absolutely sure the Raspberry Pi foundation isn't working on the issue as we type?
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chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:36 am

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/scratc ... -upgrades/

Well an update would be most appreciated.
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jamesh
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:42 am

We have never released Scratch 3.0. So presumably you are using the website version, which is run by MIT, not us.

You need to talk to them, and refrain from accusing us of laziness for something that we have no control over.

As for the offline version, I cannot give any details on when that will be released. We have more important stuff to deal with at the moment.
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:41 am

chinaguy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:36 am

Don't even get me started on PiNet using the Beta version to work with the 3B+!
I think it is important to add that PiNet is maintained, built and support provided for it by one person (aka me) in my free time, for free... It will never be able to live up to the same standards you might expect from a commercial solution with numerous paid developers behind it...

So before "getting started" on PiNet, I would suggest keeping that in mind. Plus of course, pull requests for code and documentation are accepted!
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:55 am

chinaguy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:34 am
Can the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Scratch Foundation get their heads together and fix the Scratch 3.0 using 99% cpu error. I will be using a room full of 30 RP3B+ in September for Primary School classes and I need this issued FIXED!
Your frustration is understandable but the only guaranteed fix may be to not use a Pi but use Windows or some other platform.

The issue is reported to be be that on-line Scratch 3 uses WebGL and that does not currently support graphics acceleration on the Pi. Scratch 3 appears to continually redraw / render, even when nothing has changed, and that causes the Pi to hit near 100% CPU utilisation. It is reported that if WebGL is disabled, CPU usage drops to near 0% -

viewtopic.php?t=230340#p1421328

The situation is currently something of a 'pass the buck' game with no one apparently prepared to accept responsibility for the issue. MIT presumably believe what they are doing is perfectly acceptable given things work well enough on other platforms and, if the issue is lack of graphic acceleration in WebGL, would likely say that's not heir problem, and it's an issue beyond their control to fix. The RPF take the opposite view that it is MIT's problem and their issue which they need to fix, and while the RPF say they will help try and resolve the issue they have other priorities and things which are more important to deal with.

There is no schedule for a resolution so, if disabling WebGL is not a satisfactory solution, if the Pi is not usable as things stand, the pragmatic solution would be to use something other than a Pi.

jamesh
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:41 am

hippy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:55 am
chinaguy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:34 am
Can the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Scratch Foundation get their heads together and fix the Scratch 3.0 using 99% cpu error. I will be using a room full of 30 RP3B+ in September for Primary School classes and I need this issued FIXED!
Your frustration is understandable but the only guaranteed fix may be to not use a Pi but use Windows or some other platform.

The issue is reported to be be that on-line Scratch 3 uses WebGL and that does not currently support graphics acceleration on the Pi. Scratch 3 appears to continually redraw / render, even when nothing has changed, and that causes the Pi to hit near 100% CPU utilisation. It is reported that if WebGL is disabled, CPU usage drops to near 0% -

viewtopic.php?t=230340#p1421328

The situation is currently something of a 'pass the buck' game with no one apparently prepared to accept responsibility for the issue. MIT presumably believe what they are doing is perfectly acceptable given things work well enough on other platforms and, if the issue is lack of graphic acceleration in WebGL, would likely say that's not heir problem, and it's an issue beyond their control to fix. The RPF take the opposite view that it is MIT's problem and their issue which they need to fix, and while the RPF say they will help try and resolve the issue they have other priorities and things which are more important to deal with.

There is no schedule for a resolution so, if disabling WebGL is not a satisfactory solution, if the Pi is not usable as things stand, the pragmatic solution would be to use something other than a Pi.
The 'solution' from our point of view is an offline version. Which is in progress and works fine so far.

I do wonder if running the KMS/FKMS graphics driver make the web version better? We've got changes for that in the future as well. But we are very busy with a lot of work on at the moment. It'll get done when it gets done, but as always, we do not announce when stuff will be done in advance.
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ejolson
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:06 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:41 am
It'll get done when it gets done, but as always, we do not announce when stuff will be done in advance.
While offline is very good, especially in places where internet access is unavailable or slow, the online version of Scratch is popular. If the developers are not cooperative in making version 3 run on the Pi, perhaps a pre-installed browser plugin that detects when Scratch is running and automatically disables webGL could be a temporary solution.

chinaguy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:29 am

I humbly apologize for the tone of my post, but many of you can see my frustration in the matter.

I suppose its all down to the success of the Raspberry Pi that is the root of the problem as it was never foreseen how successful the little project board would become. One of the compromises the RPF had to make in bringing the RP to the public was the payments for inbuilt patents in the chipsets used to manufacture the boards. One of the RP mean weaknesses has been the lack of support of Hardware Acceleration of Graphics which I suppose was never a major consideration in a "hobbyist project board" that it would be used by millions of people for hundreds of different reasons.

I have spent many an evening following the instructions to add support for graphic HWA when using VLC on the RP.

I fully aware of the intransigence of the Scratch Foundation in this matter as they only seem to like running their software on Apple products.(I have many emails with them on the matter) They have also stopped support for using PiccoBoards with Scratch 3.0 and unfortunately I have 30 of them in a cupboard gathering dust now! The idea was to replace the PiccoBoards with BBC MicroBits and use the RP3B+/Scratch 3.0/MicroBits/PiNet to deliver a complete balanced curriculum to KS1,2 and 3, but the best made plans of mice and men.

Could we not pay a Licence to unlock the HWA on the RP chipset like we did for MPEG2?

The RP is no longer a minority product but main line consumer and the RPF may have to consider upgrading its development and support to match that of other well know digital brands. I still have my Sinclair QL that should be regarded as a warning to what happens to successful UK computer companies.(It was the C5 that finished Sinclair but the story of the QL should be taught as a warning to others.)

As for when things will be done my Grade 2 students are hopping to start Scratch programming on the 2nd of September.

Got to go and finish 450 student reports and correct the school timetable before 3pm today :-(
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:35 am

The HW acceleration on the Pi has never been locked, the APIs are there for anyone to use.

We have spent a lot of time and money improving the graphics driver, and also Chromium performance, there should be new releases of both into the future. This might help.
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:56 am

chinaguy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:29 am
I suppose its all down to the success of the Raspberry Pi that is the root of the problem as it was never foreseen how successful the little project board would become.
I don't think one can blame the Pi. It is what it is. As is the case for Scratch.

The problem is that you are trying to use software on a device which is currently unsuitable for that device.

One can argue that the problem is the software not running well on the Pi, the Pi not running the software well, or your choice to use the two together.

I would agree there was an expectation that on-line Scratch, being browser-based, would work on everything but, though it's not as obvious, it is much the same as hoping to run Windows-only software on a Pi.

The immediate solutions, beyond putting up with how it is, would seem to be to use different software which does run well on a Pi, or to use a different platform which can run the software.

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:04 am

Scratch is probably the most popular coding package in use within schools today. Basically it allow me to teach coding to primary aged pupils as well as replacing Logo/Turtle Graphics,QBASIC. I did for many years force Microsoft QBASIC to run on more advanced versions of the operating system and Logo is getting long in the tooth to run on Windows 10.

It would be great to use Scratch 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi as it would allow me and other less computer literate teachers to combine Lego Wedo 2.0, Logo'ish drawing on screen and BBC Microbits under one software package using the Scratch codding skills learnt in one lesson can be easily transferred to other classes. The majority of teaches do not have the skills to easily transfer learning Scratch 2.0 and then using 3.0 version later in class which will now be required.(The teachers are the weakest link in the Scratch 1.4/2.0/3.0 changes)

Basically Scratch 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi allows me to integrate 3 learning branches of software/hardware onto one platform!

We then will use the Raspberry Pi teaching IGCSE and A Level using Python, so around 650 students getting their hands on Raspberry Pi's during the week in school.
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am

chinaguy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:04 am
Scratch is probably the most popular coding package in use within schools today. Basically it allow me to teach coding to primary aged pupils as well as replacing Logo/Turtle Graphics,QBASIC. I did for many years force Microsoft QBASIC to run on more advanced versions of the operating system and Logo is getting long in the tooth to run on Windows 10.

It would be great to use Scratch 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi as it would allow me and other less computer literate teachers to combine Lego Wedo 2.0, Logo'ish drawing on screen and BBC Microbits under one software package using the Scratch codding skills learnt in one lesson can be easily transferred to other classes. The majority of teaches do not have the skills to easily transfer learning Scratch 2.0 and then using 3.0 version later in class which will now be required.(The teachers are the weakest link in the Scratch 1.4/2.0/3.0 changes)

Basically Scratch 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi allows me to integrate 3 learning branches of software/hardware onto one platform!

We then will use the Raspberry Pi teaching IGCSE and A Level using Python, so around 650 students getting their hands on Raspberry Pi's during the week in school.

RPF / RPT do a fantastic job, but this is really down to MiT making Scratch2 Adobe Flash which caused many issues and this continues with the release of Scratch3.

MiT should of forgot about Flash and in 2019 we would not have this mess, as the developers could have concentrated on "web" technology development 3/4 years ago.

So you need to rant at MiT !!!!!
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bensimmo
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:25 am

One problem is the resources from the RaspberryPi Foundation are now ahead of the Pi platform provided by Trading.

I hear what chinaguy is saying, the Foundation is getting a lot of external funding, a lot for the setup of the Nation Teaching place in the UK. But if the software isn't there for primary schools to use, why bother teaching the teachers or CodeClubs if they cannot use it.

They need reasonably modern computers or tablets to run Scratch3.

It not like original Scratch on the Pi.

It may be MIT making it, but I guess he's suggesting the Foundation fund some people out of the millions of pounds from public money to port it over to be usable on the current Pi platform. Like they did with Scratch1.4. They can then don't have to buy more expensive computers to run Scratch3 for CodeClubs and Primary education (modern Chromebooks work fine I think)

The terms of that public funding may restrict that?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/natio ... computing/

But this sort of thing is a reason we did not update our Pi at our school and we will not get more. They don't find it capable enough to teach with, and one you have the more powerful computer why switch over to the Pi. It's redundant when teaching the curriculum.
:-(

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:15 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:25 am
One problem is the resources from the RaspberryPi Foundation are now ahead of the Pi platform provided by Trading.

I hear what chinaguy is saying, the Foundation is getting a lot of external funding, a lot for the setup of the Nation Teaching place in the UK. But if the software isn't there for primary schools to use, why bother teaching the teachers or CodeClubs if they cannot use it.

They need reasonably modern computers or tablets to run Scratch3.
It's well known we are working on newer Pi versions, which should support Scratch more fully. Its a shame that the people who write these software systems like Scratch do not write them very well, so you need such powerful devices to run them.....

With regard to funding, Trading designs and licences Pi manufacture, and funds itself from the profits, and the excess (a lot) goes to the Foundation who then spend just, independent of Trading. Foundation has funded some external projects, as has Trading. Trading do do work on Scratch, and as I said above, Scratch 3 is being worked on now(ish).
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:47 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:15 pm
Its a shame that the people who write these software systems like Scratch do not write them very well, so you need such powerful devices to run them.....
I would guess that MIT would counter that it is well written, doesn't need a powerful device to run it, and that would seem to be proven by Scratch 3 running with near 0% CPU usage when WebGL is disabled.

The problem does seem to be with the WebGL implementation on the Pi, not the Scratch 3 software itself.

One can take sides, choose to blame MIT or choose to blame the PI, but that won't resolve the issue when the side being blamed considers it's blameless.

I presumed the RPF partnering with MIT was intended to resolve the 'pass the buck blame game', making Scratch 3 work with the Pi and/or allowing the Pi to support Scratch 3.

And I expect they are doing that. Or maybe not. As with everything the RPF does; we'll only know if and when it's done.

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:15 pm
With regard to funding, Trading designs and licences Pi manufacture, and funds itself from the profits, and the excess (a lot) goes to the Foundation who then spend just, independent of Trading.
And, in 2017, RPT had a £16.8 million Gross Profit, saw a £9.1 million Profit, and Gift Aided £7.5 million to the RPF. It was probably higher all-round in 2018 but those accounts aren't yet available.

The issue doesn't seem to be financial so much as having the staff numbers and resources.

When staff are all busy, working on things which are considered most important, then things, which are of lower importance, will languish waiting to be done or only slowly progress. That's just how it is in every company.

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:13 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
RPF / RPT do a fantastic job, but this is really down to MiT making Scratch2 Adobe Flash which caused many issues and this continues with the release of Scratch3.
No it does not. Scratch 3 is not based on Flash; it is based on WebGL.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
MiT should of forgot about Flash
They did and have.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
and in 2019 we would not have this mess
The mess we have is not because Scratch 3 is Flash based or any previous version was. It is because Scratch 3 is WebGL based and, while that works fine for Scratch 3 on other platforms, it particularly and noticeably doesn't work well when using a Pi.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
So you need to rant at MiT !!!!!
It depends on which line of argument one chooses to take; it's MIT's fault for using WebGL which doesn't work well on a Pi, or it's the Pi's fault for WebGL not running as well as it does on other platforms. And one could blame both sides, or blame those who imagined it would be possible to use them both together, for having expectations which could not be delivered upon.

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:56 pm

If you enable the GL Driver on the Pi using either Fake or Full KMS and change a setting in Chromium, Scratch runs at about 60% CPU utilisation on my Pi3B+

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... um-browser

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:02 pm

Just for information; this is/was the official RPF position -

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/scratc ... -upgrades/

"The creation of Scratch 3 for Raspberry Pi will be a two-step process: first we’ll support MIT with their optimisation of Scratch 3 to make sure it delivers the best performance possible on a range of devices; once that work is complete, we’ll create an offline build of Scratch 3 for Raspberry Pi, including new extensions for the GPIO pins and the Sense HAT."

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:13 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
RPF / RPT do a fantastic job, but this is really down to MiT making Scratch2 Adobe Flash which caused many issues and this continues with the release of Scratch3.
No it does not. Scratch 3 is not based on Flash; it is based on WebGL.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
MiT should of forgot about Flash
They did and have.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
and in 2019 we would not have this mess
The mess we have is not because Scratch 3 is Flash based or any previous version was. It is because Scratch 3 is WebGL based and, while that works fine for Scratch 3 on other platforms, it particularly and noticeably doesn't work well when using a Pi.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:54 am
So you need to rant at MiT !!!!!
It depends on which line of argument one chooses to take; it's MIT's fault for using WebGL which doesn't work well on a Pi, or it's the Pi's fault for WebGL not running as well as it does on other platforms. And one could blame both sides, or blame those who imagined it would be possible to use them both together, for having expectations which could not be delivered upon.

Picky as per usual, what I was trying to convey is MiT wasted resources making Scratch 2 Flash based, when they should of gone straight to WebGL.....

:roll:
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hippy
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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:32 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm
Picky as per usual
Not being picky at all; just trying to be accurate.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm
what I was trying to convey is MiT wasted resources making Scratch 2 Flash based, when they should of gone straight to WebGL.....
Scratch 2 development started in 2010 and it was officially released in the first half of 2013.

If I recall correctly, the first public Firefox and Chrome releases with WebGL support enabled arrived in 2016 and 2017 respectively.

Seems hard to fault MIT for using technology which existed and not using that which wouldn't be supported or publicly available for a number of years after their work had been completed.

In mid 2016, with the arrival of WebGL imminent, MIT partnered with Google and that ultimately lead to the Scratch 3 version which was to be WebGL based.

And, even if they had gone to WebGL earlier, I am not sure how it would have been any better, given that would have encountered the same problems as it does now on a Pi.

Perhaps a counter could be; if the Pi had jumped on the WebGL bandwagon earlier, more effort had been put into getting that working well, we wouldn't have seen any problem at all when Scratch 3 was released ?

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Re: Scratch 3.0 please fix it NOW

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:47 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:32 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm
Picky as per usual
Not being picky at all; just trying to be accurate.
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm
what I was trying to convey is MiT wasted resources making Scratch 2 Flash based, when they should of gone straight to WebGL.....
Scratch 2 development started in 2010 and it was officially released in the first half of 2013.

If I recall correctly, the first public Firefox and Chrome releases with WebGL support enabled arrived in 2016 and 2017 respectively.

Seems hard to fault MIT for using technology which existed and not using that which wouldn't be supported or publicly available for a number of years after their work had been completed.

In mid 2016, with the arrival of WebGL imminent, MIT partnered with Google and that ultimately lead to the Scratch 3 version which was to be WebGL based.

And, even if they had gone to WebGL earlier, I am not sure how it would have been any better, given that would have encountered the same problems as it does now on a Pi.

Perhaps a counter could be; if the Pi had jumped on the WebGL bandwagon earlier, more effort had been put into getting that working well, we wouldn't have seen any problem at all when Scratch 3 was released ?

WebGL 1.0 Final Specification was released early 2011:

https://www.khronos.org/news/press/khro ... cification
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