6by9
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 pm

Dillow wrote:I am using Rasipstill AWB off I can supply the whole command line if you want it.
Yes please. Just to ensure I'm not barking up the wrong tree. And I'm assuming you're just looking at the JPEGs that it takes.
Dillow wrote:I have noticed the same. the Preview seems to change from Frame to Frame and the capture does not always match the end of the preview.
Preview seems to change? Or seems not to change? I hope the latter.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:26 pm

It changes during the preview It seems to always go from really warm WB to cooler. I assumed it was the CCD warming up / collecting more heuristics on the scene. I would prefer to have no preview and take the image faster but it seems to be tribal knowledge that you need to warm the camera CCD up first. Not sure if it is really true. If I could hard code a WB temp then it may be completely unneeded.

<Desperation> Did you get a camera module yet? I will fedex you one overnight if you want it.</Desperation>

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:52 am

Dillow wrote:It changes during the preview It seems to always go from really warm WB to cooler. I assumed it was the CCD warming up / collecting more heuristics on the scene. I would prefer to have no preview and take the image faster but it seems to be tribal knowledge that you need to warm the camera CCD up first. Not sure if it is really true. If I could hard code a WB temp then it may be completely unneeded.

<Desperation> Did you get a camera module yet? I will fedex you one overnight if you want it.</Desperation>
6x9 has plenty of cameras....

You need to grab some frames before taking an image so that the various algorithms can work out the correct exposure and white balance. That takes a few frames, which is why there is a delay between starting the camera and being able to take the picture. You can avoid the AWB stage with fixed numbers at the risk of bad image quality, but you will need to adjust for exposure. Nothing to do with warming up the CCD.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:06 am

jamesh wrote:
Dillow wrote:It changes during the preview It seems to always go from really warm WB to cooler. I assumed it was the CCD warming up / collecting more heuristics on the scene. I would prefer to have no preview and take the image faster but it seems to be tribal knowledge that you need to warm the camera CCD up first. Not sure if it is really true. If I could hard code a WB temp then it may be completely unneeded.

<Desperation> Did you get a camera module yet? I will fedex you one overnight if you want it.</Desperation>
6x9 has plenty of cameras....

You need to grab some frames before taking an image so that the various algorithms can work out the correct exposure and white balance. That takes a few frames, which is why there is a delay between starting the camera and being able to take the picture. You can avoid the AWB stage with fixed numbers at the risk of bad image quality, but you will need to adjust for exposure. Nothing to do with warming up the CCD.
It does seem to take a long time to 'grab some frames', anyway this could be reduced especially if all parameters are in manual?

Gordon77

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:19 am

Probably. If you are running Raspistill from scratch, there is always going to be a delay - the camera SW needs to start up, the camera needs to be detected, started, start framing, get some frames, adjust exposure etc. That takes at least 0.5s . What I'm not so sure about is running in a mode where you signal Raspistill to take the image - that, to me, seems to be a bit slower than it should be. I'll get round to checking one of these days.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:55 pm

jamesh wrote:Probably. If you are running Raspistill from scratch, there is always going to be a delay - the camera SW needs to start up, the camera needs to be detected, started, start framing, get some frames, adjust exposure etc. That takes at least 0.5s . What I'm not so sure about is running in a mode where you signal Raspistill to take the image - that, to me, seems to be a bit slower than it should be. I'll get round to checking one of these days.
Thanks Jamesh, even when using -t 0 and -tl 0 you still appear to have to wait the 0.5s even though the camera is running already. It would be good if you could get time sometime to look at it.

Gordon77

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:10 pm

gordon77 wrote:
jamesh wrote:Probably. If you are running Raspistill from scratch, there is always going to be a delay - the camera SW needs to start up, the camera needs to be detected, started, start framing, get some frames, adjust exposure etc. That takes at least 0.5s . What I'm not so sure about is running in a mode where you signal Raspistill to take the image - that, to me, seems to be a bit slower than it should be. I'll get round to checking one of these days.
Thanks Jamesh, even when using -t 0 and -tl 0 you still appear to have to wait the 0.5s even though the camera is running already. It would be good if you could get time sometime to look at it.

Gordon77
Hmm. We can take 5 or more pics/s on similar devices some something is awry.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:32 pm

Hey I would like to ensure we don't lose focus < See what I did there :D on the main issue of this thread, which is being able to turn off AWB preferably by setting a fixed Kelvin value. Someone else suggested being able to take a reference shot of a gray card and storing and that would be great but a good much less complex start would be to just allow a K value to be passed in as a pram when you take the shot.

Thanks for you efforts I know for everyone who enjoys the fruit (Raspberry flavored) of your labors there is something that is most important. My request is just another one of these. In my case I do have a potential of getting my company to buy thousands of Pi s for this application I am working on but it is dead in the water if I can not accurately set a white balance. Again I am going to the extra effort of having a completely controlled environment where the light temp is a constant. Getting the correct color is critical.

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:09 pm

Dillow wrote:Hey I would like to ensure we don't lose focus < See what I did there :D on the main issue of this thread, which is being able to turn off AWB preferably by setting a fixed Kelvin value. Someone else suggested being able to take a reference shot of a gray card and storing and that would be great but a good much less complex start would be to just allow a K value to be passed in as a pram when you take the shot.

Thanks for you efforts I know for everyone who enjoys the fruit (Raspberry flavored) of your labors there is something that is most important. My request is just another one of these. In my case I do have a potential of getting my company to buy thousands of Pi s for this application I am working on but it is dead in the water if I can not accurately set a white balance. Again I am going to the extra effort of having a completely controlled environment where the light temp is a constant. Getting the correct color is critical.
Working from a Kelvin value means that someone has to have then calibrated the red/blue gain required for this particular sensor for each of those temperature values - not a trivial task.

Thinking the issue through, the first job is to work out why AWB is rerunning the calcs on a capture even when the AWB mode is off. That sounds like a bug to me, but I'm not responsible for that algorithm and there may be a more fundamental reason.
Second job would be to add a new AWB mode that allows user provided red and blue gains to be specified. Not quite as tidy as setting a Kelvin value, but gets the same result without needing lots of calibration. (IIRC the red and blue gains are stored as text in the Makernote field of any JPEG capture, so you can therefore get the relevant numbers quite easily.)
It depends on how cooperative the AWB algorithm is, but it feels like it shouldn't be too major a job. I'll see what time I have available to look into it.

<grumpy man mode>I'm not knocking your project, but generally promising sales doesn't have that much influence (at least to me). Whilst we all support Raspberry Pi, a lot of us are Broadcom employees and therefore sales figures have little direct bearing on us. We're doing this as volunteers who happen to have access to the source code and think it's fun.
If a feature is absolutely essential to you, then it is the Foundation that you need to convince. They do have the option of contracting Broadcom or select others to do the work, but that has a financial implication to them.</grumpy man mode>
As a slightly less grumpy man at the moment, give me a chance to have a play and I'll see what can be done. :)
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:29 pm

Thanks again for you effort. Yes I get your point on promising sales, I was reluctant to even mention that, Knowing the environment the Pi is developed in. I was more intending to imply I hope to contribute one more small success story for the Raspberry Pi platform you guys have works so hard to make.

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:38 pm

I think I've got some good news for you.
A dodgy hack from a customer branch had made it onto the Pi code branch. It was always triggering a full statistics pass through the ISP on capture, and that deliberately recalculates AWB, AGC, etc. Reverting that hack and things look much better based on a quick test. It doesn't currently solve the problem of you wanting a very specific colour temperature (I will have a quick look into that one too), but it should solve the issue of the capture coming out looking different to the preview images.

I'll get that firmware update committed now so that it'll be in the next release Dom does (I don't know when that would be - watch the twitter feed).
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:41 pm

Good News Thanks

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:56 pm

6by9 wrote:I think I've got some good news for you.
A dodgy hack from a customer branch had made it onto the Pi code branch. It was always triggering a full statistics pass through the ISP on capture, and that deliberately recalculates AWB, AGC, etc. Reverting that hack and things look much better based on a quick test. It doesn't currently solve the problem of you wanting a very specific colour temperature (I will have a quick look into that one too), but it should solve the issue of the capture coming out looking different to the preview images.

I'll get that firmware update committed now so that it'll be in the next release Dom does (I don't know when that would be - watch the twitter feed).
Thanks a lot! That color fidgeting was a big usability-spoiler.

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:04 pm

6by9 wrote:I think I've got some good news for you.
A dodgy hack from a customer branch had made it onto the Pi code branch. It was always triggering a full statistics pass through the ISP on capture, and that deliberately recalculates AWB, AGC, etc. Reverting that hack and things look much better based on a quick test. It doesn't currently solve the problem of you wanting a very specific colour temperature (I will have a quick look into that one too), but it should solve the issue of the capture coming out looking different to the preview images.

I'll get that firmware update committed now so that it'll be in the next release Dom does (I don't know when that would be - watch the twitter feed).
Hmm, I wonder if that explains the unexpectedly longer time it takes to take a capture - is the stats pass at full res? That would perhaps add 1/15s to each capture as a minimum.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:45 pm

jamesh wrote:Hmm, I wonder if that explains the unexpectedly longer time it takes to take a capture - is the stats pass at full res? That would perhaps add 1/15s to each capture as a minimum.
The stats pass is reading all the input pixels through the ISP, but only producing stats rather than output pixels. It should run at around 200MPix/s, so 5MPix should be around 1/25s just in the ISP. Add in a little bit of setup time, plus the AWB algo having to run on that data (it stalls the pipe whilst it computes the actual AWB values based on the capture frame), and I can see that coming to 1/15s quite easily.
Change pushed internally (cherry-pick, so not under my name), so feel free to try it James.

(The main case that the stats pass is really wanted for is when a flash is triggered on a capture. That can significantly affect the colour cast of the image, hence making it necessary to rerun AWB, and AGC needs to compute the needed digital gain to correctly expose the image. With no flash, it's not necessary).
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:04 pm

I've just thought to check Dom's releases. The fix to stop AWB being rerun on every capture went in with https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware ... ad1afe2c1c - it was the cryptically titled "camera: burst capture performance fix"
I do have some changes that allow setting the red & blue gains with AWB off. They don't seem to be a complete solution though (still some shifting, so something is still running), so I haven't committed them at all yet. I will try to find a bit of time to play further this week.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:08 pm

Very good to see this progress. I have used the R-Pi camera in an industrial setting and the unpredictable color response caused trouble. The ability to fix the per-color-channel gains (or even better, specify them) would be very welcome!

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:53 pm

jbeale wrote:Very good to see this progress. I have used the R-Pi camera in an industrial setting and the unpredictable color response caused trouble. The ability to fix the per-color-channel gains (or even better, specify them) would be very welcome!

Agreed, thanks again for the progress.

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:40 pm

6by9 wrote:I've just thought to check Dom's releases. The fix to stop AWB being rerun on every capture went in with https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware ... ad1afe2c1c - it was the cryptically titled "camera: burst capture performance fix"
I do have some changes that allow setting the red & blue gains with AWB off. They don't seem to be a complete solution though (still some shifting, so something is still running), so I haven't committed them at all yet. I will try to find a bit of time to play further this week.

You guys are awesome! AWB is working much better now. I can set a awb scene type and I get much more consistent results. Auto still gives me inconsistent results but when I set AWB to Flash (best due to the color of my studio LED lights) all the photos from the different angle cameras are much more consistent. I may not know enough to say for sure this did it but things are definitely looking better. Thank you so much!

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:50 pm

(I was going cross-eyed staring at the code I'm meant to be working on, so had another quick look at this!)

The shift I thought I was seeing appears to be mainly due to the mode switch to 5MPix and the different denoising that happens on stills captures. With a GPU hack to not switch to the 5MP mode, comparing a set of captures they all appear to be the same from an AWB perspective (I hadn't locked AE, so that had the opportunity to change things).

I'll clean that up and push it now. I've also got a Raspistill patch to add it to the command-line that I'll pass on to James.

Even better news for those using V4L2 - it looks like it will be possible to support it. :D
A combination of V4L2_CID_AUTO_N_PRESET_WHITE_BALANCE = V4L2_WHITE_BALANCE_MANUAL (or possibly V4L2_CID_AUTO_WHITE_BALANCE = false but that isn't supported at all yet), and then V4L2_CID_RED_BALANCE and V4L2_CID_BLUE_BALANCE.
There appears to be a lack of standardisation on the range or meaning of V4L2_CID_[RED|BLUE]_BALANCE (V4L2 spec just says it is an integer field), so I may make something up that makes some sense for the Pi GPU. Either a fixed point representation, or gain*1000 probably - I'll see how I feel when I get to it.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:59 pm

All done. Now to wait for the patches to filter through and be released.

raspistill now allows -awbg <r_gain>,<b_gain> as an option, eg

Code: Select all

raspistill -w 2592 -h 1944 -tl 2000 -t 15000 -awb off -awbg 1.2,1.3 -o foo%d.jpg
V4L2 supports the enums I'd mentioned, so

Code: Select all

v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=white_balance_auto_preset=0
v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=red_balance=1500
v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=blue_balance=1500
would set red and blue gains to x1.5. The range permitted is x0.001 to x7.999, although strange things happen if you push it too near these extremes (below about x0.1 you tend to get totally black images, and go too high and things saturate)

In doing this I also tripped over a bug in the EXIF writing. The Makernote data and a few other fields weren't being rewritten on each capture - they are now with a second firmware change. As I'd previously commented, the Makernote field is plain text, and include "gain_r=" and "gain_b=" giving the red and blue gains for that capture. If you can get a correct automatic capture, it may be easier using those than empirically setting the gains.

Enjoy!
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:17 pm

6by9 wrote:All done. Now to wait for the patches to filter through and be released.

raspistill now allows -awbg <r_gain>,<b_gain> as an option, eg

Code: Select all

raspistill -w 2592 -h 1944 -tl 2000 -t 15000 -awb off -awbg 1.2,1.3 -o foo%d.jpg
V4L2 supports the enums I'd mentioned, so

Code: Select all

v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=white_balance_auto_preset=0
v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=red_balance=1500
v4l2-ctl --set-ctrl=blue_balance=1500
would set red and blue gains to x1.5. The range permitted is x0.001 to x7.999, although strange things happen if you push it too near these extremes (below about x0.1 you tend to get totally black images, and go too high and things saturate)

In doing this I also tripped over a bug in the EXIF writing. The Makernote data and a few other fields weren't being rewritten on each capture - they are now with a second firmware change. As I'd previously commented, the Makernote field is plain text, and include "gain_r=" and "gain_b=" giving the red and blue gains for that capture. If you can get a correct automatic capture, it may be easier using those than empirically setting the gains.

Enjoy!
Most excellent!!! You da Man Thank you so much.

I went from wondering if I was going to get past this issue to having 2 solid solutions. Truly appreciated.

So I should start at 1.5 for both channels and fine tune from there by shooting/eyeballing it or is there some more intelligent method? Maybe I could figure out some 30% gray card process to tell me which way to go with the tuning. Yes awb has been much better. This will still be good for me considering +90% of the frame will be filled with the same color as I am taking close ups of cars and I am sure the awb will have issues being consistent in that situation across the spectrum of colors.

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:48 pm

Dillow wrote:So I should start at 1.5 for both channels and fine tune from there by shooting/eyeballing it or is there some more intelligent method? Maybe I could figure out some 30% gray card process to tell me which way to go with the tuning. Yes awb has been much better. This will still be good for me considering +90% of the frame will be filled with the same color as I am taking close ups of cars and I am sure the awb will have issues being consistent in that situation across the spectrum of colors.
x1.5 was just a number I used as an example. They vary from about x0.9 to x1.9 depending on scene.
I'm not an expert here, but I'd start with auto mode and a grey card. Capture a JPEG. less foo.jpg (it'll whinge about being a binary file - ignore it), and in the first couple of lines you'll see a bunch of readable text. Note the gain_r and gain_b values.
Then raspistill ... -awb off -awbg <gain_r>,<gain_b> should give you repeatable results with those AWB settings.

It looks like Dom released the main firmware this afternoon which should include the manual AWB settings fixes, but not the EXIF fix. I'll prod James tomorrow to see if he can sort out the raspistill changes, otherwise I'll post the patch on here - rebuilding raspistill isn't a big deal.
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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:00 pm

6by9 wrote: x1.5 was just a number I used as an example. They vary from about x0.9 to x1.9 depending on scene.
I'm not an expert here, but I'd start with auto mode and a grey card. Capture a JPEG. less foo.jpg (it'll whinge about being a binary file - ignore it), and in the first couple of lines you'll see a bunch of readable text. Note the gain_r and gain_b values.
Then raspistill ... -awb off -awbg <gain_r>,<gain_b> should give you repeatable results with those AWB settings.

Ah the gains are in the EXIF data once the fix for the bug you found it in. I get it. Thanks. :D

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Re: Permanently turn AWB off

Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:26 am

6by9 wrote: In doing this I also tripped over a bug in the EXIF writing. The Makernote data and a few other fields weren't being rewritten on each capture - they are now with a second firmware change. As I'd previously commented, the Makernote field is plain text, and include "gain_r=" and "gain_b=" giving the red and blue gains for that capture. If you can get a correct automatic capture, it may be easier using those than empirically setting the gains.

Enjoy!
Sweet. That fixes this issue: https://github.com/raspberrypi/userland/issues/140

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