fuffkin
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:50 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:11 pm

Where can I get one of these in Ireland or the UK? We have a science demonstration next month to schoolchildren, and I'd like to do a demonstration of visible vs. near infrared reflectance.
FYI, I've ordered one from Element 14 and they're quoting me Dec 31st, so I don't think they'll be around for next month.
Sleepy Pi - Extend RPi battery life with a plugin Power Management & Arduino I/O board
http://www.spellfoundry.com

jdb
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:21 pm

It's up on the blog:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5089

Gory details:

It's exactly the same PCB and module as the camera board. Except the IR coating from the glass in front of the sensor has been omitted.

Oh, and the PCB's colour will be black.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

User avatar
jbeale
Posts: 3494
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:51 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:26 pm

If you're a little bit brave, you can simply buy the normal R-Pi camera board and do the modification yourself.
(but if you're not that brave, I don't blame you; I have 4 R-Pi camera boards but I haven't tried it either.)

If a low-quality 640x480 image is good enough for demo purposes, you can get a cheap IR USB camera such as this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remote-Network- ... 4897.l4275

User avatar
DrGuy
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:58 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:40 am

redhawk wrote:In the meantime if you simply want a cheap webcam to experiment with for IR filter modifications then the 10 quid TeckNet is probably just as good - http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 49#p305097

To make the webcam fully infrared capable some under developed 35mm negatives (near opaque) needs to be placed in front of the lens.

Richard S.
I bought one of these the other day at Maplin (and then discovered I could get it for half the price elsewhere), so I'll try that out. I am also familiar with the opaque negative/ positive trick- we used that for a similar trick at one of my old jobs back in the USA. Now I just have to find one. I am guessing a good photo store might still have one.

Thanks,
Guy

User avatar
DrGuy
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:58 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:48 pm

Thanks for the heads up! I did that and got it to work. :)
Attachments
snapshot-002.jpg
Vis-NIR webcam picture
snapshot-002.jpg (41.82 KiB) Viewed 12959 times

GordonTGopher
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:25 am
Location: Letchworth Garden City

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:57 pm

I see Adafruit have them in stock on their site, so hopefully they should be available in the UK soon :?


Gordon

arcanon
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:17 pm

I think the real value of the Pi NOIR camera needs to be made obvious. I removed my IR filter and so far, it looks like the IR detection capabilities are very week. I am not experienced with IR strength in general and all I have to test is a TV remote, but it looks like the camera can only pick the remote signal up about 0-3m away. I will try get some strong IR LED's and see how that performs, but I would not recommend the Pi NOIR right now for any think more then science experiments (like seeing the remote IR information and slugs at night) until its proving to be useful in the 0-50m range.

For example, it does not pick up human body heat.

User avatar
redhawk
Posts: 3465
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:13 pm
Location: ::1

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:27 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "I removed my IR filter" the Pi-NoIR has no IR filter to remove.
All night vision cameras require some form of IR illumination they cannot see in complete darkness.

Richard S.

User avatar
alexeames
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:57 am
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:19 pm

arcanon wrote:For example, it does not pick up human body heat.
It's a mobile phone camera with the IR filter removed, selling for about £20.

It's not a thermal imaging camera. Bit of a difference.
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

User avatar
MattHawkinsUK
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:35 pm

Infrared covers a wide range of wavelengths.

The Pi NoIR is sensitive to "near-infrared". This means you need to illuminate the scene using an appropriate infrared source. This is standard practice with infrared CCTV cameras. The IR light sources are called "illuminators".

Thermal infrared cameras are sensitive to a different range of wave lengths (long-wavelength infrared). The PiNoIR IS NOT sensitive to the wavelengths emitted by warm bodies.

So you will need some sort of IR source (800nm-1000nm) to use with the PiNoIR.
My Raspberry Pi blog and home of the BerryClip Add-on board : http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/
Follow me on Google+, Facebook, Pinterest and Twitter (@RPiSpy)

arcanon
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:18 am

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:55 pm

My point is that it should be made clear what it can do. so far there has been no proof of concept that that it could be used for something useful. what watt'age of infrared lights is needed to light something 50m away? the camera is not designed for IR, so i would not be surprised it does not perform well/not that sensitive in this spectrum. i could be wrong, but so far all that has been filmed.is slugs less than 1m away.and the product is being sold with much harder use cases

post www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5089 talks about:

"archaeologists wanted to take aerial photographs"
"health problems in trees"

seems like not all use cases will work out.

User avatar
MattHawkinsUK
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:17 pm

I see your point but because they don't make promises it is up to the purchaser to choose whether to buy one. People asked for a camera module without the IR filter and the Foundation decided to supply one.

They haven't promised anything. If it is useful to you then buy one. If it isn't then don't. Like all Pi accessories the fun is experimenting.

I am buying some IR illuminators and will experiment with those. I should be able to blog some test videos showing range etc. In time it should become clearer what the Pi NoIR can do as more people play with them.
My Raspberry Pi blog and home of the BerryClip Add-on board : http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/
Follow me on Google+, Facebook, Pinterest and Twitter (@RPiSpy)

User avatar
redhawk
Posts: 3465
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:13 pm
Location: ::1

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:19 pm

I can't speak for all mobile phone cameras but there are some terrible ones for light sensitivity so to make the assumption that the Pi NoIR is no better is flawed.
I've modded a handful of cheap Chinese throw away webcams they all show a massive improvement in low light sensitivity and response to IR room illumination.
Only one has failed to impress me so far (an old creative notebook cam) but that's probably due to the fact the lens also had an IR block coating as well as having the glass filter inside the lens assembly.
CMOS and CCD cameras are by nature very sensitive to Inferred light anyway I think you would be hard pushed to find one that isn't

Richard S.

fuffkin
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:50 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:06 am

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about the Pi-noir.

It is not a thermal camera, it will not detect body heat (that wavelength is termed "far infrared")

It is a normal camera with the IR filter removed. Most camera sensors have responses skewed in the red / near IR part of the spectrum. In order to make the response more in tune with what we see a filter is used to correct the sensor response.

The big and real advantage to a camera without the IR filter, is that you now have the option to use illumination that is relatively invisible to humans and animals and thus not alert them to the camera. However, you still need to be aware that the camera's sensitivity is still dropping off as you get into IR.

The illumination will be a trade-off: If you use 870nm IR LEDs you will still see a dull red glow from the LEDS, but the camera still has reasonable sensitivity. If you use 940nm the LEDs will not be seen and you will be "covert", but the sensitivity is getting lower and so you will need to compensate with more power.

If you want to illuminate at up to 50m, you need to decide on the area of illumination and you'll almost certainly need some optics to focus the IR onto the target. If you don't use optics you're looking at a flood light and you'll need many, many watts of illumination. Another traditional technique is to pulse the LEDs and synchronise the camera exposure to the high current pulse. As far as know there isn't a way to do this with the Pi camera, so you are left with the brute force approach.

A word of warning though, High wattage IR LEDs are not good for your eyes, just because it doesn't look bright doesn't mean it isn't. At best your eyes will feel tired at worse you can damage them.
Sleepy Pi - Extend RPi battery life with a plugin Power Management & Arduino I/O board
http://www.spellfoundry.com

User avatar
SteveDee
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Sunny Southern England
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:29 am

arcanon wrote:I think the real value of the Pi NOIR camera needs to be made obvious....
Rather unexpectedly I find myself in agreement with your basic message. I started out as an electronics hobbyist about the age of 11 (50 years ago....oh dear!). So I have that DIY mentality, I'm used to working with components & assemblies, and understand the need to check things out before parting with my hard-earned money.
But a lot of people drawn to the Raspberry Pi have no experience of hardware. Even many of the really good Pi programmers have little or no understanding of mechanics, electrics and electronics.
And because the Pi is so popular, and gets lots of publicity, I think there probably needs to be clear information at the point of sale covering the capabilities and limitations of certain devices.

poing
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:13 am

arcanon wrote:post http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5089 talks about:

"archaeologists wanted to take aerial photographs"
"health problems in trees"

seems like not all use cases will work out.
I agree that 'Pi Noir' and the title of this thread ('Night vision camera') plus the slugs videos are a bit misleading.

What will be real use cases is where you put a filter over the camera that blocks the visible light and let the IR pass through. Then, in daylight and using relatively long exposure times, you can record images in the near infrared that will reveal things you can't see with the normal visible spectrum.

The 'night vision' comes down to a little more sensitivity because the IR filter is removed and the fact that you can illuminate a close by scene with 'invisible' light. 'Seeing in the dark' at 50m away and thermal imaging (like chasing criminals at night from helicopters) is not part of the package.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23682
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:40 am

I've slightly changes the thread title to try and make things a little clearer, although not easy to make entirely clear in a subject line!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

poing
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:37 pm

jamesh wrote:I've slightly changes the thread title to try and make things a little clearer, although not easy to make entirely clear in a subject line!
What about: "Pi-Noir - !!*NOT*!! a 'Night-vision' camera... (only IR filter removed)"

That would probably make the expectations more in line with reality.

User avatar
alexeames
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:57 am
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Here's a shot I took yesterday holding both Pi NoIR and RasPiCam at the same time. Just to show the difference in daylight. Obviously you can't really do the same comparison in the dark with IR light because the RasPiCam won't register anything :)

Image

http://raspi.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013 ... mbnail.jpg

Some of you will recognize the standard test shot view I used previously when testing the original RasPiCam :) It was an overcast day.
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

poing
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:40 pm

Can you share information on the difference, if any, of exposure (shutter speed and ISO)? The link you posted doesn't give a clue, images are no doubt processed.

M_P
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Pi-Noir - Night vision camera

Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:30 am

arcanon wrote:My point is that it should be made clear what it can do. so far there has been no proof of concept that that it could be used for something useful. what watt'age of infrared lights is needed to light something 50m away? the camera is not designed for IR, so i would not be surprised it does not perform well/not that sensitive in this spectrum. i could be wrong, but so far all that has been filmed.is slugs less than 1m away.and the product is being sold with much harder use cases

post http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5089 talks about:

"archaeologists wanted to take aerial photographs"
"health problems in trees"

seems like not all use cases will work out.
Just for a data point, here is the inside of my garage at night with a cheap CMOS webcam (can't remember the model right now, sorry) with the IR filter removed. I've got a Pi in my garage so I can check to see if I've closed the door:
NO_IR_SMALL.jpg
NO_IR_SMALL.jpg (4.16 KiB) Viewed 12631 times
Here's the same scene with a small 11-LED array that I built:
WITH_IR_SMALL.jpg
WITH_IR_SMALL.jpg (29.1 KiB) Viewed 12631 times
The LEDs and camera are about 22' away from the garage door.

I haven't seen a Pi-Noir but I'd expect the results to be similar. If you're looking to get IR-illuminated photos of mainly static scenes, you really don't need a lot of illumination.

I'll also echo fuffkin's warning, too - if you do decide to buy or build an IR illuminator, you must be very careful with where it's pointing and how far your (or other people's) eyes will get to it while it's running. An annoying (and potentially dangerous) thing about them is that even the longer wavelength LEDs still put out a tiny bit of dim deep-red light that can entice people to walk up to them and try to see what they are in the dark.

User avatar
recantha2
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 am
Location: Potton, Bedfordshire
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:19 am

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this. RS Components have them in stock and are now selling them:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/video-modules/7902811/
--
Michael Horne - @recantha
Raspberry Pi blog - http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog

Cambridge Raspberry Jam
Website: http://camjam.me
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cambridgeraspberryjam
Follow the Cambridge Raspberry Jam on Twitter - @cambridgejam

User avatar
recantha2
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 am
Location: Potton, Bedfordshire
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:42 am

Farnell have just sent me an in-stock notification for the Pi NoIR:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/produc ... ku=2357308
--
Michael Horne - @recantha
Raspberry Pi blog - http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog

Cambridge Raspberry Jam
Website: http://camjam.me
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cambridgeraspberryjam
Follow the Cambridge Raspberry Jam on Twitter - @cambridgejam

mikerr
Posts: 2778
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:46 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:49 pm

Farnell's CPC now have them in too (free postage):

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/besp ... CMP=HP_RPi

Some will be pleased the description doesn't mention "night vision"...

"The Pi NoIR camera board has no Infrared filter making it perfect for taking Infrared photographs or photographing objects in low light (twilight) conditions."

StephanB
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:05 pm
Location: UK

Re: Pi-Noir - 'Night' vision camera (IR filter removed)

Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:52 pm

"Your Farnell Order Has Been Shipped"
Looking forwards to receiving my "RASPBERRY PI NOIR CAMERA BOARD"
There are many neat things you can do with this. Not just low light photography. it shows the world in a new way. Using the right filters on top you can even tell if plants are healthy or not. Its to do with the balance of some colours and IR. If you want to switch back to normal colour you can put an IR filter in front. Cannot wait to test these ideas out. Farnell are always very swift so I expect it will be with me tomorrow.
Plant health using this camera. See link
http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5146
Last edited by StephanB on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Return to “Camera board”