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abishur
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:23 pm

Edit: The contents discussed by me in this thread are my own ideas (or a collaboration of ideas), I'm okay with others taking this general premise and using it elsewhere provided they let me know, give a polite nod in the credits, and don't sale it

So I had this idea pop into my head today, but I'm afraid I lack the technical know how to make it happen so I'm putting it up here and if someone thinks it's a fun idea, it's yours to run with (please just give me a nod in the credits )

Basic idea:

Welcome to the pleasant village of Thompson and it's closest neighboring village Ritchie, it's a peaceful land where people have learned powerful techniques to get them through the repetitive tasks of work so they can play and have fun.  Day and night mighty developers work to create new and powerful techniques for work and play.  One day an evil and powerful black hat, a developer whose work has become cruel and twisted, unleashes a virus on the villages that infects the villagers and robs them of their ability to perform techniques.  The world grows grey and people are forced to perform their duties themselves.  You alone seem to kept the ability to perform simple techniques, but for some reason you can't use other people's techniques, you have to write them yourself!   Are you brave enough to travel the lands in search of lost skills to improve your techniques and bring joy back to the lands?

My thought is that you start the game and see people performing techniques (programs) that get them through the mundane chores of life using a blend of actual programming and readable language i.e.

While (floor is dirty)

{

Sweep floor;

};

Ideally, the game would be designed such that you could choose which programming language you wanted to use and the dialogue would change with it.

Once the black hat takes away the ability to perform tasks, the game starts proper.  You can perform tasks, but you can only do a single task and then the task ends.  Such as "attack" "defend" "use item".

When you write a technique it has to be a full program in the programming language of your choice and there is a list of commands you can use (attack, cast fire ball, etc).  The goal of the game is to travel the lands, learn more commands, expand the number of tasks you can do before a technique has to end (a loop counts as 3 tasks no matter how big it is).

It's soon learned that anyone can use a technique you write so you start to build a party and side quests involve finding the right commands to help NPCs perform repetitive tasks as you finish side quests that specific village colors change from the muted tones to brighter ones.  A village with all side quests completed gives you a special command or item.

When you write the technique there's no error checking.  If you mess up then the technique fails in battle.

Special areas are blocked until you can perform a certain technique to unblock them (not just a single command, but it's a riddle and you have to write a technique (program) to solve the riddle).

What do y'all think?  It seems like it would be a fun way to learn programming.  If you use the techniques properly than you can actually have them execute when it's not your turn (i.e. If PC dies then raise PC  or if PC  health is <50HP cast Heal) more powerful commands cost more tasks (you can only perform so many tasks per technique and if you have a background task such as the example above then you have less available tasks to use when it's your normal turn).
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Confused.com . . .

10 read post$
15 let description$ = description$ + post$
20 if description$ = sense$ then end
30 goto 10
40 data "abishur"s","idea"
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:27 pm

I really like this idea, I think it's an interesting and practical way to teach programming while keeping kids entertained.

It may be worth considering whether to start out teaching some form of LOGO for the initial tasks - or at least logo style problems. This could start with simple problems like "write an incarnation to move the broom across every tile in the room", "or write an incarnation to draw this magic symbol exactly", the problems could then gradually be made harder by either limiting the number of lines of parchment available  (requiring loops, no arg procedures, functions, and finally variables), or the challenges (make sure you only clean each tile once).

As you get more experienced you could then teach different more advanced languages with less forgiving syntaxes which are better for certain types of problems or doing certain actions. An important learning experience is learning to choose the right tool for the problem.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:31 pm

Hmmmm.... 20 years ago I wrote a MUD (Multi User Dungeon) that's still running to this day... The underlying engine does allow (if I premittted it!) players to upload their own code and run it - however regulating it is somewhat "interesting" (ie. left as an excercise to thse user

However there are other things around  - Corewars using the Memory Array Redcode Simulator - that's been about for a while and allows 2 players to pit their coding skills against each other in a computer simulator (the simulator runs both programs and the winner is the one who's program lasts the longest while trying to wipe-out the other persons program) Corewars is nearly 30 years old...

And these days there are large MMPORGs, and the like where you can do all sorts of programatic stuff (or so I'm told!)

So not a new idea, but might be fun to implement in a new environment... The biggest problem I had when developing the MUD was actually thinking up new areas, puzzles and "stuff" for it...  How would you regulate it and judge puzzle solving and so on? or just writing: 10 goto 999

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:55 pm

To be fair, I was thinking something along a classic 16 bit RPG style so judging puzzles would be less complex than a more rich graphical environment.  For any puzzle there would be key tasks that the NPC would inform you of.  When gave the technique to the NPC they would cast it and if each task was addressed then it would count the puzzle solved for example

"[hero's name] my house is a mess but I can't leave until it's cleaned!  The Bed isn't made, the floor isn't swept, and the laundry needs to be washed"

So after some time you get the command word clean.  You could write a simple program that said "clean house".  If you gave that to the NPC it would transition to the next day and the person would thank you... kind of, but ask if you could find a quicker technique to use.  So later you find the command words make, wash, and sweep.  So you make a technique that says "make bed, sweep floor, wash laundry" It's now a couple hours later and the NPC is complaining that it still took a long time and it turns out the floor wasn't even dirty so the real solution is to add some if statements.  If floor is dirty sweep floor, if bed is not made, make bed, if laundry is dirty wash laundry" this solution rewards you the most.

I realize that you might go "how on earth is someone supposed to figure that out?" but that's one of the tenants of RPG game puzzle solving, use the clues to work it out

The idea is less upload your own code to augment the game as it is a standard RPG where your attacks and actions are regulated to the code you write (I.E. unless you write some code, you can't play the game at all ).  I wouldn't want to have the user having to write real time code every time he got into a random encounter (which is what corewars looks like at first glance) so much as pre-making it and using it in combat.
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:45 pm

SN said:


Confused.com . . .

10 read post$
15 let description$ = description$ + post$
20 if description$ = sense$ then end
30 goto 10
40 data "abishur"s","idea"



Sadly....



Sorry. couldn't resist

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:14 pm

SN said:


Confused.com . . .

10 read post$
15 let description$ = description$ + post$
20 if description$ = sense$ then end
30 goto 10
40 data "abishur"s","idea"



So are you trying to say you don't get it?  Could you be more descriptive on which part you don't get?
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:16 pm

Excellent. At least my syntax was right. More than can be said for your spelling (of the word variable)
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:20 pm

No abishur I don"t quite understand. Are you looking to recreate the orignal "you are in a clearing, ther are paths to the north, south, east and west" games?
I have the Fortran source code for this if you want it btw?
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:21 pm

SN said:


Excellent. At least my syntax was right. More than can be said for your spelling (of the word variable)



I'll side with Abishur on that one and play the dyslexia card!!!

I wish ispell was a bit cleverer on C source code... fixed now though - cheers!

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:34 pm

Interesting concept. I"d suggest staying away from any particular concrete language implementation (no matter what you do, you"re going to need an interpreter embedded) and instead restrict yourself to a "toy" language that"s easy to implement and can interact with the game environment. You could / should probably do the game in inform, and your tasks could be implemented as "sets of instructions" for various npcs, each of whom could "understand" different concepts and want to do different things. Something like infocom"s A Mind Forever Voyaging might work as a central conceit, but with your npc/robot/drones acting autonomously once you"ve uploaded your "code" to them
Could be fun.

Simon

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:36 am

SN said:


No abishur I don"t quite understand. Are you looking to recreate the orignal "you are in a clearing, ther are paths to the north, south, east and west" games?
I have the Fortran source code for this if you want it btw?



Oh, no no no no   I'm talking about a traditional RPG.  Final Fantasy 4 would be a good example of the level of graphics and game play I'm thinking of.  You walk around get into random encounters and then in the battle rather than having menu options with pre-filled options, you have your techniques (programs you wrote) to use on enemies or other PC's as you choose

tufty said:


Interesting concept. I"d suggest staying away from any particular concrete language implementation (no matter what you do, you"re going to need an interpreter embedded) and instead restrict yourself to a "toy" language that"s easy to implement and can interact with the game environment. You could / should probably do the game in inform, and your tasks could be implemented as "sets of instructions" for various npcs, each of whom could "understand" different concepts and want to do different things. Something like infocom"s A Mind Forever Voyaging might work as a central conceit, but with your npc/robot/drones acting autonomously once you"ve uploaded your "code" to them
Could be fun.

Simon


Yeah, the interpreter was something I was worrying about.  Intellectually I know I'm talking about fairly basic programs (for loops, if/thens, do while, nested for loops), but that would either be a big back end to be able to handle a slew of programming options, or a unique program for each programming language. 

I was *really* hoping that a modular system that let you use an actual programming language could be implemented, but I suppose as long as it teaches good programming techniques....
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:19 am

As tufty said It"s worth staying away from a single language... I think it would be interesting if the concept stayed the same but you had to use fairly clear defined English to describe logical processes and structures. Ie. Pseudocode as opposed to one single language. Perhaps could use something like A.L.I.C.E http://alice.pandorabots.com/ then in theory most of the work is already done you would just need to worry about defining the game environment and defining specific rules for particular words.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:30 am

Personally, I'd go for something story-based which requires programming to solve the problems.  The whole "random wandering" bit of RPGs as opposed to what used to be called "adventure games" seems massively futile to me - there's a whole lot of scenery, and nothing else.  But that's personal prejudice speaking.  I'd still recommend playing AMFV for an idea of where I'm coming from, though.

As for the interpreter, if you want to be scoring what's being done in terms of programming practice rather than simply "getting the job done", I can't see any real way of doing it without writing your own.  Unless you want to embed not only an interpreter, but also a code analyser (there's an interesting thread on code analysers in python on Lambda-The-Ultimate at the moment).  Code analysers are bloody hard to use.

For embeddable interpreters, there's a good few out there - lua, tinyScheme, libRep, picoC, QSEAWK , Funky, etc.  The thing is, you probably don't need a full language implementation - indeed, you probably want something that's *not* turing complete, and can be further restricted on a "per puzzle" basis (or, looking at it from the other side, something that does close to nothing by default, but can be expanded on a per-puzzle basis).

Simon

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:13 am

I like it; it's a nice idea.

The language you are using could just be the standard adventure game "verb noun" stuff. You would have to add a bit of syntax for defining procedures, loops and conditions, but you could keep that simple.

As an idea for another scenario, how about a re-imagining of Cholo? You get access to one robot at the start and you can order it around, maybe using LOGO or LOGO-like commands. You can type them in individually or write procedures. Intead of a birds-eye view of what the turtle produces, you see a robot's eye view as it moves around the landscape. If you can get close enough to another robot you can interface to that one and start programming it. The ultimate goal will require you to have several robots all acting autonomously, using programs you wrote. There could be areas of bad reception, so robots can only cross that acting autonomously, and their memory could be limited, so programs had to be compact.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:09 am

Most games have a very similar underlying abstract structure.

1. An environment (static or dynamic).

2. Entities of different types: monsters, robots, people, weapons, treasure, food...

3. Rules on how an entity interacts with others or the environment & changes in response

4. Rules on how entities die or come into existance or evolve

Even Conway's simple game of Life fits in this model & so do any of the shoot'em up games or simulated/virtual words such as Second Life.

Often there is only one player as in the classic Adventure but one can imagine allowing multiple users to take over any "live" entity (or even a non-live one: you can simply stay in one place and observe what is going by!). An "intelligent" entity can use programming to control its env or other entities (but still act within the rules prescribed for it). Of course, a tremendous variety of games is possible within this abstract structure!

Perhaps one can devise a very simple environment with just a couple of types of entities and a few simple programming rules? This level of programming can be done in Basic, Scheme or Lua or even a visual language such as Scratch (the "god" level -- what creates the entities -- can be Python/C/Scheme/Lisp etc.).

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:10 am

Well an interactive fiction (the trendy name for what we all called adventure games back in the day) program to teach the basics of scheme has been written (and a while ago) by the multi-talented Andrew Plotkin.

See the "Lists And Lists" entry at http://eblong.com/zarf/if.html

OK it isn't as "user friendly" as your example.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:19 pm

andyl said:


Well an interactive fiction (the trendy name for what we all called adventure games back in the day) program to teach the basics of scheme has been written (and a while ago) by the multi-talented Andrew Plotkin.

See the "Lists And Lists" entry at http://eblong.com/zarf/if.html

OK it isn't as "user friendly" as your example.



To be fair, I meant an RPG game like Final Fantasy, it's been so long I forgot there was actually a category of games called adventure games, I'll change the post title to reflect this
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:15 pm

I used to write Adventure games for the BBC micro. All text of course, I wrote one based on Tron that won an area competition run by Acorn, and also one that was published, Marooned on Mars I think it was called. Can't find the cassette I used to have of it now. Clemoes Software published it.
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:24 pm

JamesH said:


I used to write Adventure games for the BBC micro. All text of course, I wrote one based on Tron that won an area competition run by Acorn, and also one that was published, Marooned on Mars I think it was called. Can't find the cassette I used to have of it now. Clemoes Software published it.



Excellent! I'm sure they're on eBay - there's a huge amount of Beeb stuff there!

I loved playing & writing adventures - from the original Colosal Cave to Zork, and all the Infocom stuff. Used to play (and pay for!) a game called Shades that run on Prestel...

My own MUD is still going, but it's just not the same now as it was 20 years ago...

telnet land.drogon.net 6123

for some retro fun

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:55 pm

I like this idea, however if you are going to implement a full language there could be problem of people hacking the back end, create bugs, rather than playing and enjoying the storyline of the game.

You can create an abstract language that sits on top of the game rather than the language the game was built in. You don't want anyone inserting an arbitrary code that can corrupt the game itself. What you will be basically making is a custom interpreter. The interpreter requires at least a string parser, syntax analyzer and a variable/execution stack. You can set a predefined basic keywords like DO/UNTIL, CLEAN, COOK, PLAY, RUN, FIGHT, etc, and defined properties for the objects in the environment.

My Example:

DO
CLEAN Bedroom.floor
CLEAN Bedroom.window
UNTIL Me.tired OR Me.hungry

And in the backend it works like this:

When you enter a room like in your bedroom, environment objects will get instanced by a trigger. These objects like floor and window are subclass of Bedroom. You realised that you can't leave bedroom until bedroom.clean = true. The restriction is that Bedroom.clean can only be set if floor and window is both true. Someone could hack the code by just typing SET Bedroom.clean = true. But then the player can also kill the boss by SET Dragon.dead = true. So its best to limit the language and focus on gameplay while doing a bit of coding as a learning process. Now back to bedroom. Floor and window has other properties as well like dirtLevel. CLEAN keyword can substract -1 to any object that has dirtLevel property which will set floor.clean property to true thereby when calling upon Bedroom superclass iterates child objects in the environment if they are clean or if you missed one before you can go any further.

(This is the joy of Object Oriented programming.)

So lets say you ran that code above and you realise that you stopped half-way because you ran out of stamina (CLEAN subtracts -1 from your stamina every execution and also gain +1 XP points) you can either change the code to UNTIL Bedroom.clean which will execute the code without having to re-execute it again. Think of it as background tasking. This automated tasks require scripts to be running on a thread stack and remove itself once that task is complete. Or you can manually execute tasks(Techniques) and pin them as an icon or something.

You want to add a bit of flexibility to the language as well as show players that some objects have properties that can be accessed and only those can be accessed.

As the game progresses, obtaining more keywords from collecting gems, or reading scrolls will aid your programming adventure.

I still have lots of ideas and all of this can be prototyped through a text-based console.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:02 pm

jeznav said:


I like this idea, however if you are going to implement a full language there could be problem of people hacking the back end, create bugs, rather than playing and enjoying the storyline of the game.


Haha... Don't under estimate the ingenuity of players

My MUD has a "safe" town where newbies can wander round without the danger of being killed by another player... Or at least it was intended that way...The only way to get killed was to try feeding some mouldy bread to the ducks at which point an angry god would kill you for killing his ducks..

So sometime during the games development a new system of magic was developed and the fumble spell was invented... A clever player then worked out that they could summon another player into the duck pond location, give them the bread then cast the fumble spell on the to force them to drop the bread... The poor player is killed but the "killer" player is not penalised in the normal way.

I left it in the game as I couldn't be bothered coding round it.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:18 pm

jeznav said:



I still have lots of ideas and all of this can be prototyped through a text-based console.



You might want to look at UberMUD for the underlying game engine. It's what my game sits on top of. However it is somewhat old now (c1990) and I did make many fixes and changes to the original code as I developed mine. It has a system that allows users to enter and compile code through the keyboard, although it is very crude. The database back-end is also somewaht flakey - actually, it's fairly solid- until the system crashes/reboots, etc. which is rare admittedly, but then the DB is corrupt and you need to start from scratch...

Uber is really 4 things - the IO section, the database (objects of things which conain any number of strings, numbers, pointers to other objects, or code), the compiler and interpreter. There is also a permissions based system which I never used, although it can be used to protect one user from fiddling with another users objects. (objects have owners and simple ugw type permissions like chmod in unix)  The Language (u-code) is somewhat simple (procedural, but no loops, just recursion and list iteration) Loops could cause it to lock-up and we can't have that as it's single threaded...

Anyway it could be used to give you ideas ,etc.

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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:09 pm

I was thinking about the interpreter issue and the inventive coding issue (which hey, if someone can code my game into letting them cheat, I think that should be allowed and encouraged ).  The issue is I don't want to have to include a full compiler so what to do to make sure they're doing it right?

First off, this is oriented more towards beginners, say a 1st semester programming level (they peter off around symbolic linking I think), so they're not going to be overly long or complicated programs.  I was thinking the best way to still get to use a true and full programming language would be like so:

1. Code (techniques) can only be developed in certain locations.  You can only develop code to be used in battle in specific building in towns.  There's no IDE for doing this, it will walk you through a couple and have reference material, but you have to remember things on your own.

2.  Once the code has been developed you get to use it in combat

3.  The first time using any new or changed bit of code, a txt copy of the code written is sent to compiler on system (this means one of the dependencies of the game will be a compiler to match the language you're using)

4.  If the code compiles, it's marked as good, if it fails, it stores the error message returned for you to review back in town, possibly with some comical side effect in game

5.  Code marked as "good" passes contents to other methods in game, any code already marked as good doesn't go to compiler again, probably do a "compiling" animation on the character using it to make it look fun.

For example, you can't start off the game and write some code to do things that haven't been explained/earned yet.  This is a tenant of RPGs So once a character leans the command word "for" they can write a program that says

for (turn = 1, turn = end_of_combat)

{

Attack

}

Rather than the game trying to directly translate that code, we treat overload all the code created by the user.  So it basically ignores the fact that it's a whole program and treats it as a function/module/what have you.  So we overload "for" and pass the variables to the already compiled methods for dealing with user generated code.
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Re: Programmer's Quest – The Programming RPG

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:11 pm

as a side note, I don't mind if you take some of the general premise and make a text game, it's just not what I'm envisioning for the RPG
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