grayerbeard
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:09 pm

I found this easy to follow guide on how to boot from SD then pass control to SSD / HD

https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/boot-ras ... 61081.html

It worked for me for a RasPi 4 although I was just playing around really; I'll use SD only for now.
I like that method its a bit weird but seems fine. Essentially you have to put the R Pi setup you want on an SD card and then copy over the contents to your "other drive". Because of some security issue you can't just put a fresh Raspian on the drive on the USB it ONLY works with a copy of what is on the SD card copied over as stated using the command "sudo rsync -avx / /media/newdrive" where you have mounted the other drive in the ".../newdrive" directory. The description on that website is good apart from a few fairly obvious typos such as "sudo nano /boot/cmdlinetxt" instead of "sudo nano /boot/cmdline.txt".

I do not see any downside to this method apart from perhaps issues once the proper method is working and one has run with the boot directory on the SD card and the rest of the system on the USB drive doing updates. I suppose then to change over care needed to copy "/boot" to the drive in the USB drive.

I intend using a fast 32GB SSD drive for the "system" and a big desktop 1TB for Data and setting up a desktop/server. (Both items purchased at low cost from Amazon and due to arrive tomorrow). For the 1TB drive I have one of those adaptors with an extra 12volt PSU.

So far I have tested using an old laptop 250GB drive and it works OK using the method from https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/boot-ras ... 61081.html

Can anyone see any snags to look out for (now or later)?

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm

grayerbeard wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:09 pm
I found this easy to follow guide on how to boot from SD then pass control to SSD / HD

https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/boot-ras ... 61081.html

It worked for me for a RasPi 4 although I was just playing around really; I'll use SD only for now.
I like that method its a bit weird but seems fine. Essentially you have to put the R Pi setup you want on an SD card and then copy over the contents to your "other drive".
Nothing weird about that it's what you'd do to move the OS from one partition to another. It's also what you'd do when setting up a Pi for network booting.
Because of some security issue you can't just put a fresh Raspian on the drive on the USB it ONLY works with a copy of what is on the SD card copied over as stated using the command "sudo rsync -avx / /media/newdrive" where you have mounted the other drive in the ".../newdrive" directory. The description on that website is good apart from a few fairly obvious typos such as "sudo nano /boot/cmdlinetxt" instead of "sudo nano /boot/cmdline.txt".
If you don't use sudo and rsync as indicated not everything you want will copy and nothing will have the correct ownership and permissions. So yeah, a security issue but also expected behaviour in linux. Some stuff you don't want may get copied over too.
I do not see any downside to this method apart from perhaps issues once the proper method is working and one has run with the boot directory on the SD card and the rest of the system on the USB drive doing updates. I suppose then to change over care needed to copy "/boot" to the drive in the USB drive.
Not quite. You need to create a new FAT partition at the start of the HDD, copy the boot stuff there then update fstab to match. Creqating the new FAT partition may mean you'll have to resize and move the existing partition.
I intend using a fast 32GB SSD drive for the "system" and a big desktop 1TB for Data and setting up a desktop/server. (Both items purchased at low cost from Amazon and due to arrive tomorrow). For the 1TB drive I have one of those adaptors with an extra 12volt PSU.

So far I have tested using an old laptop 250GB drive and it works OK using the method from https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/boot-ras ... 61081.html

Can anyone see any snags to look out for (now or later)?
Not a snag, but when partitioning your SSD it may be advisable to create the FAT partition for /boot now rather than have to muck about with partitions later. It can be left empty and unmounted.

Also, you should be aware of the bandwidth limitations on the 4B's USB ports: "a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports". You'll never hit the maximum possible transfer speeds of SATA III with one drive let alone two.
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grayerbeard
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:05 pm

Also, you should be aware of the bandwidth limitations on the 4B's USB ports: "a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports". You'll never hit the maximum possible transfer speeds of SATA III with one drive let alone two.
Yes not quite full SSD speed but still rather faster than max possible with SD cards.

The potential seems so good I was rather surprised that getting "boot from usb" working has a lower priority I had wondered if the upgrade to USB3 on R Pi4 was instead of the approach adopted on other SBCs of other types of faster devices for drives. Also when I researched small SSDs I found the small 32GB ones are now quite cheap at around £20.

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:51 am

thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)
Well maybe for you, but it is definitively a requirement. And not able to boot on USB is a regression since it's working properly and natively with the Pi 3B+.

A SSD plugged on USB2 port on my Pi 3B+ is much faster than any SD card.

The Pi4 has been released like an alpha software.

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:09 am

kyliael wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:51 am
thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)
Well maybe for you, but it is definitively a requirement. And not able to boot on USB is a regression since it's working properly and natively with the Pi 3B+.

A SSD plugged on USB2 port on my Pi 3B+ is much faster than any SD card.

The Pi4 has been released like an alpha software.
I assume you'll be giving it away to someone more deserving then ?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:23 am

Also when I researched small SSDs I found the small 32GB ones are now quite cheap at around £20.
Saw a 240GB SSD for $35 AUD. 16GB Intel Optane Xpoint for $25 AUD, will that work with adaptor?

These 4's are so good (er, my requirements are not very high) as a desktop, storage is now the issue.
32GB uSD is not enough.
Which is going to be more reliable booting from 128MB SLC industrial uSD or USB 3.0 Sata SSD, or USB stick?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:29 am

PeterO wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:09 am
I assume you'll be giving it away to someone more deserving then ?
PeterO
Or just put in a drawer until I can update it to use it.

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:37 am

kyliael wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:29 am
PeterO wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:09 am
I assume you'll be giving it away to someone more deserving then ?
PeterO
Or just put in a drawer until I can update it to use it.
What's stopping you from running the root filesystem on a USB drive?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:46 am

thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm
Also, you should be aware of the bandwidth limitations on the 4B's USB ports: "a total of 4Gbps of bandwidth, shared between the four ports". You'll never hit the maximum possible transfer speeds of SATA III with one drive let alone two.
You won't get full SATA-III speed even on a proper USB 3.0 port (which is only 5Gbps, while SATA-III is 6). You'd need at least USB 3.1 Gen2 or USB 3.2 Gen2x1, which are capable of 10gbps.

So, yes, the Pi 4B USB 3.0 ports are gimped slightly, but they're still way faster than USB 2.0.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:55 am

grayerbeard wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:05 pm
Also when I researched small SSDs I found the small 32GB ones are now quite cheap at around £20.
You should find lots of 120GB SSD for less than £20. 8-)

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:07 am

thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)

For my money I'd much rather see the lack of boot via GPIO 3 toggle fixed, though again that might be a minor use case so I'm not holding my breath.
To be honest, I've never seen a desktop with (accessible) GPIO pins before coming to my RPi3B - but every one that I've used had a HDD or SSD & could boot from USB, (since the introduction of USB2.0). :lol:

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 am

kyliael wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:51 am
thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)
Well maybe for you, but it is definitively a requirement. And not able to boot on USB is a regression since it's working properly and natively with the Pi 3B+.

A SSD plugged on USB2 port on my Pi 3B+ is much faster than any SD card.

The Pi4 has been released like an alpha software.
Rubbish. We did a lot of testing, internally and externally (and I am amazed there were no leaks) but when you sell 100k devices in a couple of weeks, suddenly a lot more stuff get attached, and a lot more bugs get found. This has happened for every Pi release.

The HMDI bugs - fixed. Chromium playback bug, fixed. Within 2 weeks of release. If it were Alpha software we would still be fixing them!

USB boot is not a regression, it a future feature. This is a new product. There are a number of things this one doesn't do that previous models did. Are they all regressions? No, actual choices made to remove features, or introduce them later. If we had waited for USB boot to be completed, everyone who doesn't give a damn about USB boot (most people actually) would still be waiting for it to come out - for no reason whatsoever as as it stands it does all they want. Should we have wasted a load of sales just to make sure a tiny minority of people had the feature they wanted on launch? Of course not, that would be stupid.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:21 am

k-pi wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:07 am
thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)

For my money I'd much rather see the lack of boot via GPIO 3 toggle fixed, though again that might be a minor use case so I'm not holding my breath.
To be honest, I've never seen a desktop with (accessible) GPIO pins before coming to my RPi3B - but every one that I've used had a HDD or SSD & could boot from USB, (since the introduction of USB2.0). :lol:
Ha hahahahahahah. You're not going to stop whining about this are you?. So let me put you right one last time. YOU DO NOT NEED NATIVE USB BOOT FOR THE DEVICE TO BE CAPABLE OF DESKTOP TASKS. You are suffering from a cognitive bias - that because YOU want a feature, everyone else does. This is demonstrably NOT TRUE. I am using my Pi4 as a desktop RIGHT NOW, without USB boot! Most people couldn't give a rats rectum about native USB boot. And many that do, just use an SD card to get the same effect. Which, tbh is sort of how desktop PC's work - they have a bootloader in flash memory which then runs the OS from an attached device. We just have the tiny extra bit which is the SD card, which is...just a little bit more flash memory.

Last post on this subject.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:27 am

All my RPis run from HDD. But for all I have been using the "old method": Boot partition on SD, root FS on HDD.

There's a great tutorial here on the forum (for years) and everbody should be able to follow it.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 29&t=44177
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:33 am

kyliael wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:51 am
thagrol wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm
Booting from USB is not a requirement of a desktop system. Neither is rotating rust or SSD storage. (lol or otherwise)
Well maybe for you, but it is definitively a requirement. And not able to boot on USB is a regression since it's working properly and natively with the Pi 3B+.
No. It's a requirement you have. It's not, and never has been, a requirement of a generic desktop system. And I'd expect the vast majority of "desktop system" user to have never needed to use this feature or even know that it exists.

Would I like USB boot to be available? Yes. I'd like network booting too.

Am I going to moan about it? No. All that would do is make me look like a petulant child with no understanding of the realities of the situation.

There are way to work around this situation. You'd be beter off spending your energy on those than on whinging on here.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 am
Rubbish. We did a lot of testing, internally and externally (and I am amazed there were no leaks) but when you sell 100k devices in a couple of weeks, suddenly a lot more stuff get attached, and a lot more bugs get found. This has happened for every Pi release.

The HMDI bugs - fixed. Chromium playback bug, fixed. Within 2 weeks of release. If it were Alpha software we would still be fixing them!

USB boot is not a regression, it a future feature. This is a new product. There are a number of things this one doesn't do that previous models did. Are they all regressions? No, actual choices made to remove features, or introduce them later. If we had waited for USB boot to be completed, everyone who doesn't give a damn about USB boot (most people actually) would still be waiting for it to come out - for no reason whatsoever as as it stands it does all they want. Should we have wasted a load of sales just to make sure a tiny minority of people had the feature they wanted on launch? Of course not, that would be stupid.
James has hit the nail on the head. The RPF / RP(T) folks are a small team with an incredibly big task to cure the hardware / firmware / bootcode quirks and Linux & user program software bugs in RPi4. (This is also why I'm waiting until the end of August to buy an RPI4B 4GB. Although in two weeks since the RPi4 appeared; it seems to be a very stable system.)

With a small old SDCard from that collection you've got when cameras and phones didn't do 20MPx photos (less than 256MB is needed for /boot) you can have /boot on the SD and the root filesystem on a hard drive. When the RPi4B gets the new USB boot (& PXE) feature just move the /boot to /dev/sda1 (which you've left space for) change the cmdline.txt and /etc/fstab and it will "just work".

If I were a moderator on here, I'd have stuck K-Pi in the cooler for a week for bleating about that on the forum constantly for the last fortnight.
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grayerbeard
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:09 pm

I whole hearedly agree that we now have the info for an easy work around until the final boot from USB is available and also excellent advice about how to have the USB drive set up so that it will be easy to change over in the future when the normal arrangement is working.
To me also this has been an excellent example hof how well the commun ity helps each other tyop figure out how to solve probklems even when the problem is very much a miniority issue. :D
Perhaps is time to close this thread?

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:32 pm

grayerbeard wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:09 pm
I whole hearedly agree that we now have the info for an easy work around until the final boot from USB is available and also excellent advice about how to have the USB drive set up so that it will be easy to change over in the future when the normal arrangement is working.
To me also this has been an excellent example hof how well the commun ity helps each other tyop figure out how to solve probklems even when the problem is very much a miniority issue. :D
Perhaps is time to close this thread?
The instructions have been around for years - it's how its is done on all models prior to the 3B+, which is when SD cardless USB boot was added. Which is why the comments above are so frustrating.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm

The pi3b+ can boot from usb
The pi4 can't

If that's not a regression, what's a regression then?

You're advertising the pi4 as desktop replacement... Using a Micro SD as drive. Just the worst way to run an OS.

Easy? Yes.
Cheap? Yes

Fast? No
Reliable? No

I bought a Pi4 day one.
Now I see another articles stating you will release another version of the pi4 due to USB C issue in a couple of weeks. ( a pi4 rev2 ?)

Now I don't oy feel I bought an early access Pi, I feel I've been fooled.

Will never buy a Pi again day one.. NexT time I'll wait weeks or even months to avoid to feel my ass stretched like that.

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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:49 pm

kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
The pi3b+ can boot from usb
The pi4 can't

If that's not a regression, what's a regression then?

You're advertising the pi4 as desktop replacement... Using a Micro SD as drive. Just the worst way to run an OS.

Easy? Yes.
Cheap? Yes

Fast? No
Reliable? No
It's a non-issue. You can boot from SDCard, and transfer to root on a USB-connected drive. Like the early Pis did.
kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
I bought a Pi4 day one.
Now I see another articles stating you will release another version of the pi4 due to USB C issue in a couple of weeks. ( a pi4 rev2 ?)

Now I don't oy feel I bought an early access Pi, I feel I've been fooled.

Will never buy a Pi again day one.. NexT time I'll wait weeks or even months to avoid to feel my ass stretched like that.
Your choice. Either you have the Pi from day 1, and risk the issues that may arise, or you wait without a Pi.
If you wait too long, you will buy the day before another version arrives.
Does the USB-C issue affect you anyway?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:53 pm

kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
The pi3b+ can boot from usb
The pi4 can't

If that's not a regression, what's a regression then?

You're advertising the pi4 as desktop replacement... Using a Micro SD as drive. Just the worst way to run an OS.

Easy? Yes.
Cheap? Yes

Fast? No
Reliable? No

I bought a Pi4 day one.
Now I see another articles stating you will release another version of the pi4 due to USB C issue in a couple of weeks. ( a pi4 rev2 ?)

Now I don't oy feel I bought an early access Pi, I feel I've been fooled.

Will never buy a Pi again day one.. NexT time I'll wait weeks or even months to avoid to feel my ass stretched like that.
Answer my question.
jdb wrote: What's stopping you from running the root filesystem on a USB drive?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:59 pm

kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
The pi3b+ can boot from usb
The pi4 can't

If that's not a regression, what's a regression then?

You're advertising the pi4 as desktop replacement... Using a Micro SD as drive. Just the worst way to run an OS.

Easy? Yes.
Cheap? Yes

Fast? No
Reliable? No

I bought a Pi4 day one.
Now I see another articles stating you will release another version of the pi4 due to USB C issue in a couple of weeks. ( a pi4 rev2 ?)

Now I don't oy feel I bought an early access Pi, I feel I've been fooled.

Will never buy a Pi again day one.. NexT time I'll wait weeks or even months to avoid to feel my ass stretched like that.
And another whiny, petulant child expecting perfection and everything handed to them on a platter with litle or no understanding of how the real world works.

The lack of USB boot is at worst a minor inconvience for a small minority of people.

The USB C thing likewise, especially as there are at least four other ways to get power into a 4B (via GPIO, via a "dumb" USB C cable, via a micro USB PSU with suitable USB C adaptor, via the PoE HAT).

Neither of this issues have life threatening consequences. Much bigger companies have made similar or much worse oversights at launch.

Here's two that could kill you and/or destroy your property:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pint ... litigation
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 85461.html

May I politely suggest that you grow up, gain some maturity, and calm down.

Edit:

Is it just me or are folks these days too impatient and demanding to work out solutions to their problems even when others have provived step by step instructions on how to do so?
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:39 pm

kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
The pi3b+ can boot from usb
....
Will never buy a Pi again day one.. NexT time I'll wait weeks or even months to avoid to feel my ass stretched like that.
Actually not all USB to sata adapters work with the Pi 3B+ - I have a pile of USB 2 and USB 3 ones that work fine in SD/HDD mode but not in HDD only mode. A two second search on this forum would have shown that as a regular issue here.

Any new computer system has had issues - if you think things not working at the start is new to this industry you are sadly deluded - just look at Windows 3.1 and 3.1.1 to say nothing of versions of DOS or CP/M

Till a couple of weeks ago the Pi 4 was a ‘wish list’ item so this was a none issue and is waiting awhile that much of an issue?

Also please watch your phrasing - this is a family friendly forum.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 pm

Andyroo wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:39 pm
Any new computer system has had issues - if you think things not working at the start is new to this industry you are sadly deluded - just look at Windows 3.1 and 3.1.1 to say nothing of versions of DOS or CP/M
Not just new ones. I remeber working with a sysadmin back in the 90s whose rule was never touch an even numbered version of Oracle's database engine. Hi sjustification? That's the ones bugs get introduced on, they get fixed in the next odd numbered release.

No idea if there was anything to it, and frankly you could just as easily apply it the ootherway around.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, it wasn't because the even number version had more bugs but because the even numbered version were the ones where new features were introduced, which usually meant new and exciting bugs.

His theory was that the next odd numbered version would have those fixed.
Last edited by thagrol on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I can´t boot from usb in pi 4

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:51 pm

kyliael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 pm
Using a Micro SD as drive. Just the worst way to run an OS.

Easy? Yes.
Cheap? Yes

Fast? No
Reliable? No
Something I left out earlier:

You're forgetting that the primary purpose of the Pi was (and AFIK still is) providing cheap educational computers for kids to learn coding on. Not something that can easily be done with SSD or HDD storage.

As for "Reliable? No" I've only had one SD card go bad in the last 7 years, and that was on a 'droid tablet not a Pi. And what, precisely do you mean by "reliable" anyway? Your average desktop is a lot more vulnerable (and therefore less reliable) than the average Pi.

As for "Fast? No", in the real world "fast" is subjective and depends on much more that the speed of the storage medium.

I'd avise against you buying another computer (of any sort) ever again. You won't be satisfied with it and there'll always be a revised one coming along soon. Or car, or pretty much anything really.
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