Heater
Posts: 13353
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:50 pm

hippy,
That's really just "concern trolling"...
I have no idea what that means. Seems to be some new internet slang for "I don't like your opinions or speculations". You are free to ignore them.
...haven't even watched any of the Proof of Concept demonstrations.
How would you know if I had or not?

People are free to try what they like. Within the limits of copyright law and MS licensing, which is still not clear in this case.

Rather than "concern trolling" consider it a challenge. I look forward to seeing the results.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

fruitoftheloom
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:48 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:50 pm
hippy,
That's really just "concern trolling"...
I have no idea what that means. Seems to be some new internet slang for "I don't like your opinions or speculations". You are free to ignore them.
...haven't even watched any of the Proof of Concept demonstrations.
How would you know if I had or not?

People are free to try what they like. Within the limits of copyright law and MS licensing, which is still not clear in this case.

Rather than "concern trolling" consider it a challenge. I look forward to seeing the results.

8 years and still no fully functioning Windows Operating System for every model of Raspberry Pi.

Add this to Android & ChromiumOS as a requested ""must have""

:lol:
Retired disgracefully.....

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:08 pm

So, FX!32 got to about 50% of a native system. Which is pretty good. So lets say we get similar to that on an ARM, (Alpha was a RISC chip too), then running a windows x86 app on a 1500mhz single cored device would result in an equivalent of about 750Mhz on ARM, but ARM gets less done per clock, lets say 50% of a top of the range i7 at the same clock speed. So we could expect an x86 app to run at best about 25% of the speed on ARM as a similarly clocked fast x85 core. Bnt fast x86 cores generally clock much faster (3GHz), so ARM performance is comparatively lower.

Completely made up figures,
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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Andyroo
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:25 pm

hippy wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:53 pm
...
A link to something running Windows on ARM might be more appropriate.
Having survived Windows RT in not going there again. Please put a health warning on the top :lol:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:48 pm
...
8 years and still no fully functioning Windows Operating System for every model of Raspberry Pi.

Add this to Android & ChromiumOS as a requested ""must have""

:lol:
Given M/S tries to pitch IoT as an edge solution to the chargeable cloud services (that does the heavy grunt work) I’m sure the rapid release of the 4 was a surprise to them as much as to us. I’m not convinced that long term ARM has a place in the development stream of M/S desktop till ARM servers can deliver cloud at lower cost than x86 boxes and have enough software to make it viable. At that point, M/S may transfer skills to the desktop dev teams on Arm V8 and it may be in time for the next Pi chip :roll: :D :roll:

Yes I am aware of the Gigabyte servers and OneCore but it’s still a long battle with the newer Intel and AMD chips ramping up brute computing power at lower cost - both in £ and energy.

Long term though - are the big corporate users of the Pi boards interested in either developing for Windows 10 on a Pi or using versions of Linux? Consider the number of cut down applications you get for Windows S - not that many... Gut feel is standard Linux or their own tiny Linux O/S but I have no proof of this. Home users I feel will have very little say in the matter despite this topic cropping up again and again and again... Market forces drive machines for games and home use based on Windows and x86 (look at sales figures) with lower cost / abilities being taken by Chromebooks and really cut down Windows S laptops. Arm is only just dinting this market so the desktop is out of reach for the likes of HP and Samsung with ARM chips.

I do not expect any announcement from RPT/RPF let alone M/S either way as folk like to keep doors open rather than be seen backtracking or jumping on the bandwagon (eek - too much corporate speak there). Given a choice - just give a clear no please. Will save hundreds of ‘why won’t Fortnite run’ or ‘how do I get a new video card connected’ (and folk here know my feeling on that engineering feat).
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

Andyroo
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:31 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:08 pm
So, FX!32 got to about 50% of a native system. Which is pretty good. So lets say we get similar to that on an ARM, (Alpha was a RISC chip too), then running a windows x86 app on a 1500mhz single cored device would result in an equivalent of about 750Mhz on ARM, but ARM gets less done per clock, lets say 50% of a top of the range i7 at the same clock speed. So we could expect an x86 app to run at best about 25% of the speed on ARM as a similarly clocked fast x85 core. Bnt fast x86 cores generally clock much faster (3GHz), so ARM performance is comparatively lower.

Completely made up figures,
That still outperforms the lower end home machines. My laptop is a low powered box that shipped with Windows S - runs Linux fine for everything I need it to do. But the cost of the Alpha was horrid compared to that of the x86 I seem to remember.

I remember (flat caps on and cue the Hovis music) when a 486 was fine for a server and the Alpha was a viable option but we went Compaq and then HP.
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

jamesh
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Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:43 pm

Andyroo wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:25 pm
hippy wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:53 pm
...
A link to something running Windows on ARM might be more appropriate.
Having survived Windows RT in not going there again. Please put a health warning on the top :lol:
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:48 pm
...
8 years and still no fully functioning Windows Operating System for every model of Raspberry Pi.

Add this to Android & ChromiumOS as a requested ""must have""

:lol:
Given M/S tries to pitch IoT as an edge solution to the chargeable cloud services (that does the heavy grunt work) I’m sure the rapid release of the 4 was a surprise to them as much as to us. I’m not convinced that long term ARM has a place in the development stream of M/S desktop till ARM servers can deliver cloud at lower cost than x86 boxes and have enough software to make it viable. At that point, M/S may transfer skills to the desktop dev teams on Arm V8 and it may be in time for the next Pi chip :roll: :D :roll:

Yes I am aware of the Gigabyte servers and OneCore but it’s still a long battle with the newer Intel and AMD chips ramping up brute computing power at lower cost - both in £ and energy.

Long term though - are the big corporate users of the Pi boards interested in either developing for Windows 10 on a Pi or using versions of Linux? Consider the number of cut down applications you get for Windows S - not that many... Gut feel is standard Linux or their own tiny Linux O/S but I have no proof of this. Home users I feel will have very little say in the matter despite this topic cropping up again and again and again... Market forces drive machines for games and home use based on Windows and x86 (look at sales figures) with lower cost / abilities being taken by Chromebooks and really cut down Windows S laptops. Arm is only just dinting this market so the desktop is out of reach for the likes of HP and Samsung with ARM chips.

I do not expect any announcement from RPT/RPF let alone M/S either way as folk like to keep doors open rather than be seen backtracking or jumping on the bandwagon (eek - too much corporate speak there). Given a choice - just give a clear no please. Will save hundreds of ‘why won’t Fortnite run’ or ‘how do I get a new video card connected’ (and folk here know my feeling on that engineering feat).
I thought me say that the amount of work being done on Windows on Pi by us is Zero, Zilch, Nada was fairly clear. I have no idea what MS might be doing, not heard anything at all.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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Andyroo
Posts: 4502
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Re: when will Raspberry pi 4 + windows 10

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:59 pm

Apologies - I did not mean to infer anything from your side or put words in your mouth. I’m used to hardware and software joint release statements and roadmaps :o

The last time I was involved in bleeding edge development the hardware company where providing remote tech support when the docs where not clear (i.e. lots of pages as it was a Japanese company) - not at the O/S level but the hardware driver level.

I also worked in companies where some departments (as few as two) could not explain what they did due to NDAs etc. to other members of staff. Created very strange dinner breaks as you did not talk about work :lol:
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

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